need help picking right breed

" Why again do you want a dog? " 

i want a dog because i need a dog.

check history. thats why most people used to keep dogs. inside or outside most dogs were kept or a purpose.

that'd be me.

like willow--- said i'm not letting the dog freeze to death or die of lack of companionship. i don't think some people posting understand life as a farm dog.

but i do appreciate the advice on breed differencese. although i'm starting to think it is a moot point.

I think in this day and age people only get dogs for pets, they forget that many dogs were originated with jobs - like tending a farm.  I grew up on a farm and very few of our dogs lived or even came into our house, but they were loved and cared for like all the dogs I ever owned.  Look into the Catahula's, Collies, Border Collies, Great Pyrenese, Greater Swiss and the Bernese Mountain dogs their history is all about farm work.  You do have to teach the dog to stay on the farm, it will take much time to trust the dogs loose at night and when your not home.  During this time you will need confine the dog until it can be trusted and learns to stay on the farm.  

I'm not in the mood to argue tonight, so I'll just enter my opinion & then move on.

I was raised in the country.  We didn't have inside dogs.  Period.  Dogs were meant to live outside, & do a specific job.  That's just how my family worked.  The dogs were loved, & cared for as if they were members of the family.  They had beds on our patio during the summer, & they slept int he barn on beds & hay during the winter.  It wasn't like they were neglected or ignored.  They just weren't allowed inside.  It wasn't until I left for college, with the Aussie pup that my parents gotten me as a graduation present, that I realized that dogs were great in the house as well. 

My family still has "outside" dogs.  They have eased a little on the "no dogs in the house" policy, but a majority of the dog's time is spent outside.  They are cared for.  They are loved.  They are trained.  They are everything that my own, "inside" dogs are.  Only they spend more time outside than my guys do.  I'm not sure that you can convince me that this is a bad thing.....

Now, to the OP.  I would look into fencing a yard for your dog.  Even with the best training, it is going to be difficult to convince your new dog to stay on your property.  Unfortunately, they don't grasp property lines quite as well as we do!  Personally, I would stay away from dogs who have been bred to work closely with humans.  When I read your first post, my initial thought was Australian Cattle Dog.  They are tough, independent dogs, who need a job, & who take their job seriously. 

OP, stick around.  The people here are passionate, & sometimes that doesn't translate well for newbies, but our group here has tons of knowledge & they are always willing to try to help out.

Good luck.

sgettin

" you state that you are not a dog person, yet you also state that you have been around dogs all of your life. So what did you learn? "

so what have you learned about dogs? list your accomplishments.

sgettin....Not sure what you mean by my accomplishments...if you mean do I have a fenced yard to keep out the deer...yes, i do...but my fencing is really to keep my dog home and safe.  Where I live in Canada there are many displaced deer and it is a very sad situation.  There is nothing worse than driving down a busy street and seeing misplaced deer and babies or seeing dead deer on the highway.

My accomplishments?  Not sure what you are asking, but I AM a dog person therefore my best answer to you is that my greatest accomplishment with dogs is that I know they need to be hugged and loved and that having an intimate relationship with them is an amazing experience.  I can also tell you that my dogs give back to the community. If you want more info about me, just check out my posts.  So back to you...if you are not a dog person, why are you determined to depend on a dog to defend the lifestyle that YOU have chosen?

Let's keep the personal tit-for-tat out of the equation (and this thread), please. 

Meanwhile, Amanda (Bevo), the situation you describe is very similar to my ex's dad's Cattle Dogs' lives.  Although there are horses on the property with the dogs.  And a containment area for times when the dogs need to be secured.  And a fence line that runs along the side of the property adjacent to neighbors with a contained dog.  The dogs keep the coyotes at bay, so I believe they can be useful around animals other than cattle.  The difference btwn pets and working dogs.  again, I think ACDs are a reasonable option if you're good about socializing with the kids, which of course goes for pretty much any breed.

OP, you're doing the right thing by researching first.  If any of your neighbors are using dogs to keep the deer at bay, it might be useful to pick their brains for what has/has not worked in your area.

sgettin

hello. i need a new dog. that being the case i want to get the right dog for what i need. problem is i know very little about dogs so thought i would ask for some help if i may.

i want a dog to keep animals (specifically DEER) out of my yard. i live in the country in the midwest and the deer are so thick a person can't keep trees and flowers in the yard. i have always had a dog but need one now for a specific purpose. i guess i'll just list the details.

1. i live 1/2 mi off the road on a 200 acre farm so space isn't an issue. i'll take good care of the dog but it will be an outside dog and have free run of the place. my last dog never saw a leash or a collar, or a bath for that matter. did get regular pour on bug killer though.

2. the dog has to be trainable not to "run". by run i mean not leave the property. to much of that and someone will shoot it.

3. must be friendly to people and not tend to bite kids. i realize traiing has alot to do with that.

4. must be inclined to run larger animals like deer and other dogs off the property.

5. price? not an expensive breed to purchase.

6. i'm not a dog person but will train it and treat it well.

so far i like bull terriors and staffordshire terrior but haven't a clue. any help would be appreciated.

thanks

 

 

 

I am responding directly to this without reading the replies first, so sorry if anthing I say has already been covered.

First of all, just to warn you, but a lot of your requirements kinda contradict each other.  Not saying that as a criticism, just a heads up that you may have to "give" on some areas.

1.  I am not against dogs being kept outside, on certain conditions.  First it needs to be the right "kind" of dog.  I would be horrified if some got a lap dog, or other "velcro" breed (No GSD please!!) and then made him live outside.  I would be horrified if someone got a dog with little coat, and left them out in harsh weather, or a heavy coat and left them out in the heat of the summer.  You get the idea. 

It really sounds like you could do with researching an LGD type (livestock guardian) - I am no expert on this, but it may be an option.  They tend to be large, physically suited to outdoor life with fairly little human contact.  The downside would be that they protect their "flock"; their family - not a given AREA.  With no flock to care for, and a arbitrary boundary.... not sure how any dog is supposed to learn what they are supposed to do?  As with any "breed" LGDs are pricey, unless you go for a dog from poor stock (which I hope is out of the question, as you want a healthy, robust animal which has been bred for temperament). In any case, it might be worth contacting a few breeders, purely for advice at this stage. 

Whichever breed you choose, it is likely to be an older dog rather than a pup.  With an older dog (say, 2 years plus) what you see is usually what you get.  It is far easier to assess the candidate in terms of temperament.  With a pup, it's a gamble.  I mean, you don't KNOW how big he will grow (unless he is a pedigree), you don't KNOW that he will confidently run other animals off your property, and while training plays a large part in raising a "home body", some of it IS just genetics and personality, so that is harder to gauge too. See what I mean?

With regards the collar - I recommend all dogs wear a collar and tag with YOUR contact details on.  If the dog DID wander off your property, it's the fastest way fo him to be returned to you.  In addition, I whole heartedly recommend a microchip and/or tattoo - a permanent form of ID that can't be lost or tampered with just in case.  We all try to contain our dogs and/or teach them to stay home, but dogs are dogs and sometimes it happens... can happen to the best of us.

2.  Generally, I think the breeds likely to be more of a home body, are the breeds that stay because they want to be near their owner,  and as you have already stated that this dog needs to spend a large part of the time outdoors, away from you, those breeds are out.  In short, it will be tricky and may well come down to training and an electric fence.  More expense I am afraid!!

3. Anything with a mouth can bite, and will do if pushed hard enough.  Some kids tend to push pretty hard.  I suspect this is going to be down to TRAINING the dog, proper socialisation with kids of all ages, personality of the dog and (if an adult) the dog's own catalogue of personal experiences before you get him.  Might also be worth letting folks in your area know there will be a dog running loose on your property, and you will train him and raise him to be friendly, but he is a WORKING dog, will be protecting your property, and you don't want them to touch him?  Might also be worth backing that up by putting up signs and such.  Don't say "beware" or "Danger" or anything like that - anything that could imply, if there WAS an incident, that you already "knew" the dog was dangerous.  Just "LARGE DOG RUNNING FREE", something like that.

4. ???  Drawing a blank here, other than an LGD.  Try googling it, work up a short list of breeds and contact the breed clubs for more information - the info you need may well be too specific for a general online forum   It may be that they can suggest other options to you, as well as telling you if "their" breed is suitable.

5.  Unfortunately, normally you get what you pay for, in terms of purebreeds, and with such specific criteria, I really can;t see how you can get away without a pedigree (=£$£$£$£).... unless you just keep scouring papers, shelters, craigslist,, petfinder, etc.  Again, drawing up a shortlist of breeds and contacting breeders is a good start, sometimes they do have older dogs up for rescues might be a cheaper option, but you do run the risk of picking up a dog with sufficient baggage that he doesn;t have the confidence to do the job you have in mind.....  Not that it isn't an option, just something to be aware of when looking at potential dogs.  Ask about their history.  For example a dog who has suffered a great deal of abuse or neglect *might* not thrive in the envirnoment you will provide, and may prove a liablity?

No one should ever get a bull breed and let it run loose.

This is being over thought.  Deer will usually run from any dog and will avoid a place that has barking dogs, especially if the have marked every vertical item.  Check your local laws on deer chasing dogs.  In Minnesota, DNR agents are required to shoot any dog they see chasing deer.  Any dog hardy enough to survive outside (ie any farm dog) will keep deer away.  The dog doesn't herd the deer.  Its presence and scent are deterents.  When my spaniel spots a deer, she comes back to me.  The deer can usually be seen leaving the area.  If any deer refuses to leave, venison is quite tasty.  If you get dogs big enough to attack deer, you might be creating more problems than you want.  The dog may not notice the difference between a deer and a sheep or cow.  Neighbors get real upset with sheep killers.

I live in a rural area and was raised on a farm.  Dogs living on farms have excellent lives. They usually have good food and shelter (frequently in the barn) and probably have more contact with the boss than many suburban or urban dogs.  They ride in the truck , walk along to help with chores, run thru the woods and fields with the kids plus they get to chase birds and rodents at will.  We had one dog that adopted a steer as her buddy.  It was an illfated relationship, as the steers future was preordained.

Get a dog that likes people and treat it as one of the family.  Walk it on a leash around the area you want deer free.  Do this frequently and the dog will learn its boundries.  Don't let the dog think its hunting deer, or it will.  A deer can lead the dog on a long chase, and any deer can damage a dog if its forced to fight.  Their hooves are hard and sharp and can cut like a knife.

thanks to everyone for taking time to reply. i've been getting the general idea that breed of dog is not so important although certain breeds may work better and some may not be a good fit. not being as well versed as the majority of people on the forum i was thinking a given breed would be a certain fit. now i would think knee high max growth and a good upbringing would pbly work so the local pound is something to seriously consider.

thanks to dougb and couple other folks for shedding some light on what a "farm dog" really is. i realize there are many different backgrounds represented on this forum and perhaps unless you've been around a farm you may not completely understand. my last dog (beagle) knew the property line, didn't bite people, and kept the varmits at bay. only pblm was she was to small to scare the deer and was a bit to preoccupied with rabbits to waste time on deer. and yes i raised/trained her from a pup and got her from a breeder. i can garountee you after about a 1min conversation a breeder will sell me a dog. also as i do realize there is no need to train the dog to shred deer on the spot. barkin and smellin is usually enough, if not  30-06.

bruester (sorry i have to edit this, originally said leslie, my mistake)  wrote "So back to you...if you are not a dog person, why are you determined to depend on a dog to defend the lifestyle that YOU have chosen?"

because the dog works for me, not the other way around.

from the little i have heard on the news etc from "experts" you need to realize a dog is a subordinant member of the pack not a member of the family and definately not to be treated as one of your children and most definately not your equal.

breuster (edited see above) i liked your respnse to my request for your accomplishments. however you came up perhaps a bit short in the accomplishments area for someone who professes to be well versed in k-9 husbandry and also an all around great speller. i think it would be a good idea for you to do some research of your own. i am afraid perhaps that you may be creating a "biter" by not understanding the proper place of the dog in the family pack. just tryin to help.

sgettin

from the little i have heard on the news etc from "experts" you need to realize a dog is a subordinant member of the pack not a member of the family and definately not to be treated as one of your children and most definately not your equal.

The pack??? IS the family. A dog is not a child. It is not a human being, it's a dog. Treating a dog as a child is disrespectful to the dog being a dog, and isn't helpful for anybody. That doesn't mean that the dog cannot have a place in the family. 

sgettin

" Why again do you want a dog? " 

i want a dog because i need a dog.

check history. thats why most people used to keep dogs. inside or outside most dogs were kept or a purpose.

that'd be me.

like willow--- said i'm not letting the dog freeze to death or die of lack of companionship. i don't think some people posting understand life as a farm dog.

but i do appreciate the advice on breed differencese. although i'm starting to think it is a moot point.

A GSD would do the job, has the right body and coat for the weather, and would be less likely to run off without a fence BUT they also get super attached and are not happy living outdoors by themselves.  If that's the case, I'd look into a guarding type dog that is more independent, like a Great Pyr?

sgettin

 

bruester (sorry i have to edit this, originally said leslie, my mistake)  wrote "So back to you...if you are not a dog person, why are you determined to depend on a dog to defend the lifestyle that YOU have chosen?"

because the dog works for me, not the other way around.

from the little i have heard on the news etc from "experts" you need to realize a dog is a subordinant member of the pack not a member of the family and definately not to be treated as one of your children and most definately not your equal.

breuster (edited see above) i liked your respnse to my request for your accomplishments. however you came up perhaps a bit short in the accomplishments area for someone who professes to be well versed in k-9 husbandry and also an all around great speller. i think it would be a good idea for you to do some research of your own. i am afraid perhaps that you may be creating a "biter" by not understanding the proper place of the dog in the family pack. just tryin to help.

Hmmm, Sgettin..I am not going to bite here.  My current dog is a Pitbull and he is a rescue.  He is a loving  little soul with a lot of spirit.    He  will never fight a dog again nor will he ever bite a human being because he has a 24/7 loving home..  Sgettin...the initial  purpose of your post was to  find a suitable dog "to guard your trees and flowers" I hope you have found a suitable animal and I hope it is not at the expense of the dog.

 Why is it that people get so offended at the idea of getting a dog to do a job?  When someone says they want a dog to do agility with, nobody jumps on them saying, you chose agility, not the dog.  My old Pint was primarily an outside dog, though she was allowed inside if she wanted.  She ran the property line her entire life,  kept deer out, kept skunks and foxes away from the garbage.  She also kept the younger dogs in the property and trained them to do her job as well. But please don't tell me I didn't bond with her, cause she wasn't cuddled up on the couch with me every night.  I loved that dog, with every ounce of my being.  And I AM a dog person. 

I totally understand not wanting deer in your yard.  The trees around this town have no leaves on them until about 10 feet up because of the deer.  The cedar shrubs are brown with a green cap if they are tall enough.  Flowers are non existant or surrounded by something just shy of barbed wire coils.  The deer just stand there and watch you walk past them now.  Its creepy.  I am not a deer person...or a cat person, but that's another matter entirely.

When I stayed at my parents house for a month, there was never a deer on the property past the first night there.  I walked the perimeter of the yard several times a day with my dogs and Crusher marked and marked and marked.  The deer stayed away.  So I agree, with whatever dog you choose, keep it leashed until it learns better, walk the property line and let him mark.  But since deer stags can definitely get aggressive, I wouldn't want my dogs chasing deer.  

BTW, Pint was a little black lab X.  Maybe with shepherd or husky.  Something herdy anyway.  She had a rough start in life, and was not expected to live long.  She died 3 years ago at the age of 17.  Not too shabby.

husky mom, i think you may be my neighbor. nice to hear you have had some of the same experiences i have had. sometimes hard not to come off as a cold person unless you grew up here etc.

would like to say thank you to everyone on the board. not sure what i'll end up doing but you've corrected some of my misconceptions and pointed me in the right direction. i will check out some of the breeds recomended and remember the insight given on how dogs "think". thank you.

bruester-. darn i'm disapointed you didn't bite on my last attempt to crank you up. in all seriousness though was just haviing fun with ya. i think perhaps we are polar opposites.

thanks again and i'll check back if i have a problem. 

see ya.

scott 

There are dogs in any number of breed combinations who could manage the task you wish.  Although I dont care to live with my dogs outside, I think many can be perfectly happy especially with a job.  The problem in reality is not a breed issue, but a personality issue.  Your "job" requires aspects of multiple canine breeds.  You need  a kid friendly dog with a a great memory (kids are there on an intermitant schedule).  You need an independent thinker (who understands boundary work) who also responses well with people.  You need an intimidation factor for humans and animals, but the UPS guy needs to be able to get to the house when necessary.

You may be better served looking to local farm folk and finding someone who's dogs work the way you wish and have the option of puppies in the future.  The training component for a puppy to take on this job is incredible because it will require considerable off property socialization.  Dont be fooled, let the puppy be as approachable and friendly as possible.  Dogs readily take on altering behaviors as they age.  You may find a bitch a better option than a dog, but again that is a personality issue as much as anything. 

You will need a dog with an absolutely wonderful recall as well as boundary recognition so you will need to get a handle on prey drive very early in the training process.  You also need it to manage behavior around kids especially when they are playing.  It will also keep the dog alive.  Dogs with high drive can run into traffic as well as get shot for running deer.  A bored dog can come to the same end.

The one tough and "in your face" question I hope you consider,,,, if the dog doesnt work out,  what happens?  I would hate to see such an animal turned into a shelter or worse if it could not do the job.  So again, look for the animals in your area who already do the job.  Their offspring may give you more of a chance of getting what you need than trying to find a breed.

mrv

The one tough and "in your face" question I hope you consider,,,, if the dog doesnt work out,  what happens?  I would hate to see such an animal turned into a shelter or worse if it could not do the job.  So again, look for the animals in your area who already do the job.  Their offspring may give you more of a chance of getting what you need than trying to find a breed.

no worries mrv. my dog my responsability. i'll take good care of it either way.

and thanks for the advice.

later