Help me understand.............

ron2

You keep saying that like someone burned you personally. And I doubt it was Ann Heche, the most famous of switcheroos.

No, I've never been in a relationship with a woman or have ever been gay at one time. 

However as to the topic, if you want me to vote yes to something I need to feel that there is something really there to vote for.  Being OK with people who are gay today, not tomorrow or are curious or experimenting just bring down the whole validity of it for those that are truly gay--were always that way, can't just decide to change tomorrow. 

It doesn't make me want to vote yes when the majority just seem like they are going thru a bunch of nonsense and think they are gay now.  Maybe that stinks for those who truly are but that's the way I feel and apparently I'm not the only one. 

Lori... Gay marriage WAS legal in CA. The prop was to amend the California constitution to ban it. THAT is wrong, I'm sorry, whether you "believe" in homosexuality (?????) or not. To take it away after it was legal, to make it a constitutional amendment? That's absolutely disgusting IMO.

And Jenn, a few teachers being stupid does not mean it's in the curriculum of public schools. There are teachers who go outside what they're supposed to teach all the time. Teachers who talk about their religious beliefs in public schools, for example. Should a teacher telling their students about religion cause religion to be banned???

jenn52

 How can you say it wouldn't affect the schools?

One teacher invited her students to her gay wedding.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gayschools19-2008oct19,0,6474352.story


Another teacher made 5 year olds sign cards stating they would support Gay/***/Transgender.

http://cbs5.com/local/gay.marriage.schools.2.851074.html

Both things are unnecessary in school and inappropriate for the ages of the kids.  Values are for parents to teach, not schools.

 Some teachers bring up religion and personal political opinion... does that mean we should get rid of religion and politics, too?

 No. 

 It just means that some teachers shouldn't be teachers.  That's all.

willowchow

No, I've never been in a relationship with a woman or have ever been gay at one time. 

However as to the topic, if you want me to vote yes to something I need to feel that there is something really there to vote for.  Being OK with people who are gay today, not tomorrow or are curious or experimenting just bring down the whole validity of it for those that are truly gay--were always that way, can't just decide to change tomorrow. 

It doesn't make me want to vote yes when the majority just seem like they are going thru a bunch of nonsense and think they are gay now.  Maybe that stinks for those who truly are but that's the way I feel and apparently I'm not the only one. 

There is a current fad, especially amongst girls that bi is in.  As a fad, these are also the people who parade it the most since it is for attention.  If anything it would be more proper to be saying straight people are being fickle since they start out straight, poke around for a bit of fun, then return to being straight.  Gays however start out gay, often try to hide it and fit in, only to find out it is hard to force love and sexual attraction where there is none.

That being said, I have always been a fan of the sliding scale when it comes to sexual orientation.  You have straight on one end, and gay on the other.  While most people deviate more to one or the other side, it can be to varying degrees.  Some are extremely to one end, others close to the middle, but some may linger to one side, but not so far they can't reach out and dip their cup for a drink in the other.  That is what makes love so special.  It isn't a formula, something you can buy in a store, demand, or predict.  If it was, it wouldn't be love anymore.

I apologize, Lori. It wasn't until later that I realized that my post sounded wrong.

But I can't understand why you would care if someone were gay and then switched for a while. What should it matter to you if two Joe the Plumbers hit it off or not. Unless something happened to you personally, which is why I made the comment, misstated as it is. You don't get to decide what someone does with their body. And you don't get to legislate who they fall in love with, no matter how many times you might vote yes for prop 8. Actually that goes for everyone. Vote against it all you want, like stomping your feet at night in your pj's, when you didn't want to go to sleep. That's not going to change the fact that people change their minds. And that we can't legislate their minds or hearts. One of these days, some people at least as smart as we are will recognize those facts.

And I think it's ironic that California could out-redneck Texas. How did that happen?

Anyway, for those in California, get the sodomy statute repealed and then the marriage ban has no leg to stand on.

This issue often comes up in Australia as well. I believe it is not currently legal in my state for two people of the same sex to marry, but equal rights in same sex relationships are improving. They now put both names of a gay couple on the birth/adoption certificate of their children so that both parents can pick the kids up from school without written consent from the other half, etc.

For some reason a reasonable proportion of our office is gay, so these things come up at work a lot. I know some lesbians who very much want children. I am leery of this merely because they want to adopt. My half-sister (half in technicality only; I consider her a full sister) was given up for adoption by my mother due to what was basically emotional blackmail. She grew up in a wonderful family with opportunities she never would have had in our family, but nonetheless, I feel it as an unspoken tension between us all that she would have been better off in her natural family. We would never say it because her adoptive parents are so wonderful, but now there is a tension between us and her adoptive parents because she gets on so well with us. We can't blame them for being jealous of the way this person relates so well to us when she has only known us for a few years next to the 30 her adoptive parents have known her. Anyway, my point is, adoption is a big deal. Bringing children into the world in any context is a big deal. I would think very carefully before deciding to bring a child up in a same-sex household, but then some people have a burning need to have kids, and who am I to tell them they shouldn't or that it would be selfish?

Sorry, that was all a bit rambling. I guess what I'm saying is that there's more to it than homosexuality and heterosexuality. When it comes down to it, though, it annoys the hell out of me that it's even an issue. Exactly as other people have said, what business is it of mine?  

My apologies in advance since this IS OT, but unfortunately many parents are not doing their jobs and are NOT teaching values to their children.  If they were we wouldn't have pregnant 12 year olds, children raising children, the NEED for birth control education in the schools.`  And had a teacher done that to MY child, well, the school board would be hearing from me in all my fury.

I'm sorry to say that many, many people are just close minded about equal rights.  They believe with their whole hearts that homosexuality is wrong, that it is against God, or whatever, or that in some way, allowing same gender unions will lead to allowing all sorts of nonsense.

There were people who opposed giving women the right to vote,just as their were people who were often violently opposed to blacks voting.  For many, change is just a very scarey thing and they will fight tooth and nail to stop that change from happening.

We cannot shine the candle on "marriage" as it exists in our nation today.  Half of the marriages end in divorce, there is more cheating than you can shake a stick at, and there doesn't seem to be the same commitment that there once was.  When I was growing up, gosh, a divorcee was a dangerous woman.....she wanted sex and wouldn't care where she got it.  And no, that's not what I believed, but it's what society THOUGHT, and often whispered. Divorce just wasn't "done" in those days.  And when I divorced a low life abusive piece of pond scum, in my Mom's social circle, it still wasn't "done" and she felt the strong need to explain what a low life he was as an "excuse" for my leaving him.  Good grief, in the days before "no fault divorce" you had to actually have grounds and PROVE that the spouse was a low life piece of pond scum.......today, heck, it seems like divorce happens because someone squeezed the toothpaste tube wrong.

So how can we (in general) stand on our morals and values, when we ourselves don't commit to anything for long and deny ANY loving couple the same rights that a man/woman couple would have?

It's just that darned M word that gets in my way.......

Moderator note...

Just another general request,

Please, again...stay on topic, keep it relevant, and respectful of all viewpoints. Thank you all for doing your part to keep the discussion interesting, on topic and respectful.

ron2

And I think it's ironic that California could out-redneck Texas. How did that happen?

The TV ads for *Yes on 8* were blatently deceitful and  bankrolled to the tune of $20 million dollars by a church in another state. They actually said that if *No* passed, they would be teaching about gay marriage in kindergarten.  Think for a minute .... when was the last time you heard about any type of marriage being taught in kindergarten? A lot of people were just scared into swallowing this nonsense.

Joyce

fuzzy_dogs_mom

Think for a minute .... when was the last time you heard about any type of marriage being taught in kindergarten? A lot of people were just scared into swallowing this nonsense.

Excellent point. When I was in school, I don't remember any class teaching "marriage." That was something your parents did, and still do, as far as I know. And we knew about sex before we reached puberty. And, as time went on, we knew about gay people. Kids are not stupid, mindless automatons. And the world kept on turning.

I expect to see prop 8 overturned. It violates freedom of speech, life, liberty, freedom of religion (separation of church and state,) and the pursuit of happiness, it violates the statement in the Declaration of Independence, which cannot be amended, that "all men are created equal."

And school boards violate freedom of speech every day, and people vote in what they want, whether it's accurate or not. Some schools are required to teach creationism as if it had as much scientific evidence as evolution. Since it doesn't others wish to insert the anthropic principle (a debate technique) to bolster it. I can't seem to stop that. Culver City, CA, banned the book "Huckleberry Finn" from school libraries because it had the n word in it. Never mind that it is a piece of historical fiction that takes place during the time of slavery and the Huck Finn was non-racist and was helping Jim escape. We can't forget our history but some would like us to. Revisionists. Another school local around here made a young native american student cut his long hair, which included a medicine braid because his hair was too long for the dress code. Never mind that the medicine braid is part of his heritage and religious observance. If others have the right to prayer in schools, he has the right to a braid. And vice versa, if he can't have the braid, then we can't have prayer in schools. The government shall establish no religion.

What should be put to those who would vote yes for prop 8 is exactly what evidence supports that gay is a choice, what evidence supports that it's a bad choice, more importantly, what evidence supports that gays can't marry? The answer is none, at least not without a religious opinion. And religious opinion is faith. We have to take it on faith that the Commandments were transcribed accurately. That the rules of living as shown in Deuteronomy were transcribed without error. For some, that's fine. Others do not share that view of the faith. And yes, I have known gay people who attend church and believe in God. I've known some gay people who are just as devoted and committed as any straight couple. I've known some that are promiscuous and have dangerous habits. And I know a guy that could define the description of straight and he is a womanizer, even though he is married.

The only objections I have seen here to prop 8 are from those who speak from a religious faith. And that faith is a beautiful thing for them. And the govt. shall establish no religion. But hey, nothing's perfect. That's the danger of democracy.

willowchow

ron2

You keep saying that like someone burned you personally. And I doubt it was Ann Heche, the most famous of switcheroos.

No, I've never been in a relationship with a woman or have ever been gay at one time. 

However as to the topic, if you want me to vote yes to something I need to feel that there is something really there to vote for.  Being OK with people who are gay today, not tomorrow or are curious or experimenting just bring down the whole validity of it for those that are truly gay--were always that way, can't just decide to change tomorrow. 

It doesn't make me want to vote yes when the majority just seem like they are going thru a bunch of nonsense and think they are gay now.  Maybe that stinks for those who truly are but that's the way I feel and apparently I'm not the only one. 

I think it is an unfair statement to say that the "majority" of gays are like that?  Have you met the majority of gays? 

My supervisor and her partner have been together and committed for years.  They have a house together and have been through thick and thin together.  Heck, they seem to have a stronger relationship than many of the straight people in our department, considering that many of the people in the department are divorced, we've had a couple of divorces just in the last few years (one of them was the woman's third divorce), and one separation following an affair between two coworkers who were married and have kids.  You want to talk about fickle--look at straight marriages.

So should my supervisor and her partner be denied that right to be "official" because Lindsey Lohan cannot decide who she wants to make out with next? 

Did anyone see the Oprah show yesterday?( Friday )  She was discussing the propositing 8 thing herself.   I didn't sit down to watch it but was doing some things and tried to pay attention...since this conversation was going here.    But she had Melissa Ethridge and her married partner on and two of their ( or partners ) kids.     Interesting that the conversation was more towards the  money issue than anything.  Tammy ( Yikes I think that was her partners name ) said she doesn't get caught up in the word MARRIED and that she also thinks the word causes most problems. She said "maybe I am wrong but I am not up in arms over all this...my family accepts me and loves me as I love them...thats all that counts!"  She was asked if the word Marry is the thing that caused the problem with that proposition and she said she felt it was. And then they went on to compare the finincial responsibility of the words "civil union" as opposed to "marriage!"

It really seemed to me that the laws of fininicial responsibilities in these union/marriages...are what was important to them...and got the feeling that might be what is important to a lot of people. As well it should. 

But yet then is also showed some people in California either before or after the votes... being rebellious saying "we will stay at this until we change America!"

For me.....I felt comfortable with the conversation with M.E. and then when they showed the rebellious shouting ...I felt like that is the attitude that causes a lot of problems.  Yes the word marry is the problem.  Maybe this all should be worked out a different way...without using the word marry.....get the finincial responisbilities taken care of in the unions....and then maybe eventually the idea of the M word will not be so hard to take.

There had been a lot of wars of change in America in that past..... we have changed a lot..but they all took time. There was the Civil War...now we have a black President.  GREAT STRIDES.    Just one example of change..... maybe this proposition 8 thing will change too...maybe the folks are just trying to change it all too fast.  Maybe that is what is causing more problems than anything.

The one constant thing is change. Yet, at the same time, there is no new thing under the sun.

Just a general note: Some have a problem with the word "marriage." I had a problem with the middle name of "Hussein." And I got over it.

But I suppose people will just have to use the the phrase "civil union" and just use the m word in the privacy of their own homes. The word marriage is an english word that comes from the french word, marier. It's just most commonly associated with for most people with church weddings and for many people, between a man and a woman. Well, gay people get married in some churches, too. Others may think their faith is wrong but the state cannot decide that such a wedding is not valid for that would violate freedom of religion and it's corollary, separation of church and state.

The navajo had nadles, cross-gender members of the tribe. In some tribes and cultures such a person was considered a blessing to their tribe. So, while we're denying gay people the right to marry, let's go ahead and deny the navajos some more of their culture because it doesn't fit in with our puritanical version of european judeo-christianity. We've already taken their land and nation. Used them as code-talkers in WWII. What's one more injustice in a long line of injustices? Let's keep other people down just because they are different than us or their faith is different than us. All for a word.

The fear campaign that kids would be taught gay marriage in school is not only overreaching but is incongruent with actual experience. For one thing, we all had to take some kind of sex ed, including the scary old films on v.d. And our parents taught abstinence. Did it stop anyone? Heck no. So tell your kids to be gay. They will go out and be straight just to be different. Tell your kid to pull his pants up and he will wait until he is outside with his friends to drop them the gangsta-wannabe level. Nowadays, the kids are growing their hair long, again. Anything to be different. Seriously, though, kids have a nasty habit of thinking for themselves and becoming adults, no matter how much we think we can control them. And allowing gay people to marry does not mean that the schools will all of a sudden make it a rule to teach gay over straight, the behavior of certain teachers with possible ethics violations notwithstanding.

Thanks to my mom, I read the Bible more than some people who have been in church all of their lives. I've read the Gospels several times. I've seen most of the Christ movies. I don't recall Jesus going off on the gay people. But he did come up with a gem. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. He also condemned most loudly those who were hypocritical. He valued honesty and love overall, I think. He was also heir to the throne of Jerusalem, which scared everyone silly.

Excellent post, Ron.  

Joyce