Wow (Obama)

Jewlieee

I have to say though, that I actually smiled for the first time with regards to our country, when Obama won.

I was reading on AOL that we are no longer considered by the rest of the world to be "ugly Americans".  Sure hope that sentiment holds.  We really need to regain a position of respect in the world.

Liesje

ron2

alieliza

take the stance that race doesn't matter is diminutive and demeaning to the great strides

Which sounds as if you are trying to diminish my view. Yeah, I get it, you have an education for the problems of education. And you pushed aside my notion that it shouldn't matter.

Does anyone here know how to win graciously?

 

I don't see what being gracious has anything to do with this.  Again THIS IS NOT ABOUT OBAMA OR A "WIN" this is about us American citizens democratically voting in favor of a black President.

I am with alieliza, I think that race ALWAYS matters, and not in ways that makes you prejudge someone, but that you cannot deny its existance and the context in which it influences people.  For me, acknowledging race does NOT mean I think I'm better than a black person, or I voted for Obama just becase he's black, or I think his life was harder than mine just because he's black.  It's simply an acknowledgment that I understand what has happened in the past does create a context for how people are treated today and I understand that I can't presume to say something does or doesn't matter when I've never walked in that person's shoes.

Liesje, Thank you. I lost track of this thread and didn't catch all of these responses until just now.

You and I have like minds. What you said is what I was trying to express.

I am not being ungracious, and that post has nothing directly to do with you personally, rather, the place that race holds in our society today. I am with you in the fact that I *wish* it didn't hold the power it does, or that it didn't exist at all (if you ask me "race" as we know it today is a social construction), but the point of the matter is is that it does.

And the fact that I've got an "education about the problems for education" is not even the jist of it. The education I have is in terms of education, yes, but the "problems" you are speaking of go far, far beyond just the educational system. I just put them in that parameter because that is what I am most familiar with, but these notions extend much further and are present in each of our lives regardless of whether or not we are students, educators, or simply citizens of this global world.

I must concede a point to you.

I heard some preliminary stats on the voter turn out today. Approx 121 mil voted, same as 2004. One might think the young'ns turned out in droves. 11 percent, this time, same as 2004. The undecided votes went almost entirely to McCain. The one difference was the african-american vote. 13 percent this time, as opposed to 11 percent in 2004. That two percent difference in the right number of states with significant electoral votes helped. And of course, the dems who are prone to vote dem every time. Which is fine. Some repubs vote their way all the time. But the difference, based on prelim analysis was that it was about race, at least in appearances.

I'm not naive and I know and have known some racists and, BTW, not all of them are white. And Obama being president is not going to change their tune, right away. And a lot of it does have to do with upbringing. One guy can't remember a time when his parents weren't using racial slurs. I, OTOH, never heard the n word until we moved to Texas in 1974. I was raised color blind and I can't seem to break myself of that. Sorry.

You and I are seeking the same thing, from different angles, perhaps. And I think Obama being president is going to be good for this country, even if he messes some things up. Because, it will eventually help, I think, to make people color blind, like me. I, of course, am the paragon of what we should be.

I think that where we are losing each other is in the definition of "color blind". I think that what you mean by the term "color blind" is that to you, color doesn't make a difference, a good person is a good person, a bad person bad. I agree with you in that, a person's color doesn't influence their character. I share these morals and values.

I see color, and to me, color means something... To me, color means identity and self identification, color means culture, ethnicity, as well as individuality. It means uniqueness and true diversity, it means beauty.

It also means underlying ties to society, implications that are inflicted by today's society, ties that are below the surface, ties that to the "other" may not be overtly apparent... They are connotations that I don't agree with, or feel are just or right (call me your definition of "color blind" if you will), and I *wish* they didn't exist, but it means things like a racial hierarchy in *most* US societies, it means inequality in today's schools, it means unjust privilege, etc. (Of course, there are exceptions to this, and in some communities this is much more apparent.) This is not to say, as Liesje said, that I think that I, or anyone else is better than the next person *because* of their color, but there are systematic practices and, injustices, if you will, that exist in our society, that are beyond most anyone's immediate control.

I think a useful article is this one: http://www.colby.edu/par/Winter%2000/racematters.htm Again, it is in the context of education, but I think it puts these ideas much more clearly than I ever could.

I would like to know what you, or anyone else thinks, but at the same time, I think that you and I have the same foundations to our ideas and are just getting caught up and twisted around by our somewhat different definitions.

A boy asked me the other day "Am I yellow?" "I said you're not yellow as I'm not white." (while pointing to stark white and yellow pieces of paper). "You are Chinese, and I am French American." I went on to explain to him that we talk about people in terms of their "skin color" when really it doesn't represent their skin color at all, rather labels. So, here I extend on my thinking in that race has turned into a social construction (here is an interestingly funny article that epitomizes the idea that race is a social construction: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7461099.stm... Anyway, I think its more important to recognize someone's ethnicity, their national affiliation, and even more importantly, their individual identity.

Also, I want to add that I don't mean to offend anyone, or suggest that any one of us are racist. I know that beginning discussions about race, racism, and white privilege are very difficult subjects, and that is by no means the road I want to take us down, or what I, or the author of the article is suggesting. In fact, when people in this field talk about racism in terms of being "color blind" or "passive", the typical "bigot" connotations are not what is meant.

I hope I'm not digging myself a big hole here. I hope my intentions are understood. I would never mean to hurt anyone. I guess I'll just shut up now.

What you're saying is thoroughly backed up by extensive psychology research. While race may not "matter" in that you or I wouldn't consciously treat someone differently because of their skin color, there are a lot of factors beyond the conscious in which race does "matter," or affect our behaviors. This is true for people of any skin color, by the way. There's a good deal of very solid science showing that, for example, black people can be just as prejudiced against other black people as white people can be, even if everyone consciously is saying they consider everyone equally.

So here's another touchy subject: attractiveness. Research has again proven time and time again that people think better of attractive people than of less attractive people, and yet very few people consciously identify with those values. (People don't usually go around saying, "I hate ugly people" - they claim a person's attractiveness has no impact on how they treat them, even though research has proven otherwise.)

Don't get me wrong - having race, skin color, attractiveness, etc. be unimportant to people on a conscious level is great. There has also been a great deal of research showing that you can actually change your unconscious prejudices by believing and frequently repeating your conscious desire to be unprejudiced. So someone saying that race doesn't matter to them is awesome, and is probably true to a great extent, and in a good way. But that doesn't mean that race is irrelevant, either. Nor do we want to erase or derogate the differences between people - as Alieliza suggested, we want to celebrate those differences in a positive way, not ignore them completely.

I feel like I'm not making a lot of sense, so I apologize. Just coming from a psychology background (with a current focus on diversity-type issues) these types of discussions can really get me going sometimes. 

I can see that you and I agree, but I want to point out that when I talk about institutionalized racism, I am not, in entirety, talking about prejudice, though, in some cases, they coexist. I also understand that prejudicial ideas, whether they be about race, attractiveness, intelligence, gender, etc. can be held by anyone, towards anyone. (Don't even get me started on "reverse racism", lol!!).

The ideas I talk about above are also backed up by research in many fields.

I can also see that we probably share a lot of common interests!

I just want to reiterate to Ron that I really believe that though we have different definitions and understandings of certain concepts, that I feel like we have a lot of the same ideas and ideals.

alieliza

I want to point out that when I talk about institutionalized racism, I am not, in entirety, talking about prejudice, though, in some cases, they coexist.

Teehee, that's actually a major part of the research I'm working on right now.

Thank you for sharing some of the sources. I draw an exception to one thing in the Colby Reader article. Where we are still guilty of racism because we haven't shirked our white privilege. I know there's a perception of glass ceilings and that might be right in a number of companies. Not so in the company I work for. They will hire anyone as long as the work can get done. He doesn't care what you look like. Other than recently, most of time working for him I've had long hair and look like a biker. He will hire anyone of any ethnicity. For some reason, though, not a lot of african-americans want to be electricians. I've seen some, in times not as enlightened as this. Strong and smart. And, by the way, the were and are in positions of power of me. One was boss in a company, and the other is an inspector in a town I have worked in. Where's all my white privilege then?

I get what the article is saying that much of pop culture seems to automatically favor white. But disenfranchising myself is not going to right the wrongs of the past. Feeling guilty because I have had whatever white privilege doesn't fix things. I will not feel bad because I am white (actually, tan. A summer in Texas makes me as dark as most mexicans.) And so, I was not and would not vote for Obama because Jefferson had slaves and I'm going to right that wrong by voting for a guy just because he is black. I didn't vote for Obama because I don't agree with his policies.

As for reverse racism, this is where the article really shows itself to be personal opinion rather than any "proof". Reverse racism, wherein special favor is granted because of someone's ethnicity to right the social injustice of the past. This is also racism and is also wrong. It's like saying "Obama, we're "giving" you the presidency just because you are black and we used to have slaves in this country and Jim Crow laws and we really feel bad about all that and "shirk" our white privilege of being president so that you can have a chance." To me, that's also the height of arrogance. How would that make him feel? That he won this election not because he ran a tighter campaign or had any issues that could help or that he might be the right person for the job in a few a different avenues but he won because we "let" him in order to scratch the guilt of our "white privilege"? He might more prone to say, "I don't need your pity or your charity" and he would be right. I don't think granting any privilege based on color is right, even if the desire is to right past wrongs.

Some of the best friends I've had were not caucasian and we got along fine because I dropped the guilt thing and treated them like a human and the only difference between us is a millimeter (the aprrox depth of melanin in the skin.) I still had to learn things. My friend Tommy was patient with me. I came home from work one day and he was on the patio, sunning himself. I said "I know I'm going to sound stupid but I didn't know black people can tan (you could still say black, then)." He said," Oh yeah, and we can sunburn, too." Tommy was murdered in 1988 and another friend, John, died 4 days later from complications of gunshot wounds. Tommy was killed because he was gay.

So, to recap, a few of my friends have been gay. And Tommy, who also happen to be black was my roommate. And he stayed a roommate when I got married to my first wife. And it wasn't because I was white and trying to help a black man nor was it him putting up with whitey to get along. We just happened to be friends. At the trial of his killer, Tommy's sister came up and stayed with us and I went with her to to the trial. Judge Jackson gave the killer two concurrent terms of 30 years and felt that was lenient because the victims were technically "criminals" suspect of having violated Texas Statute 21.06. Judge Jackson passed away recently and I rejoiced. You won't find Statute 21.06 any more because it's been repealed.

See, I've learned about race and the value of color-blindness, not because I have white guilt or have read someone else's idea about it but because I have been there, done that.

But I, too, note how some things in our culture are lop-sided. In fact, it was my mother that pointed out that our popular pictures of Jesus are based on culture-centric notions. Jesus was not european. He was hebrew. That means he wasn't redheaded, fair skinned, and blue-eyed. He was olive skinned with curly black hair and dark eyes. I.E., he looked more Osama bin Laden than he looked like me.

And, in my opinion, muslims and jews are brothers arguing over daddy's will.

I think the international crisis Biden feared would test Obama will involve Israel. They will do something and our response will determine a lot of things.

You bring up affirmative action. AA is not about giving someone a position because they are a person of color (and by the way, you can still say "black" today), but its about giving a person of color the position because they are qualified. It means extending the reach of interviewees to include people of color, and giving the position to the most qualified person. Even if AA were the cause of Obama's presidency, he wouldn't have gained the position were he not qualified. Affirmative action is by no means giving positions away to unqualified people because of the color of their skin. I will give you this, though, that it is, indeed, a highly debated/debatable practice.

ETA: Let me also say that there is usually a tendency to over correct. Is affirmative action the best practice? Maybe, maybe not. But, the point may be that without it, we may have never moved away from job discrimination. One can never know. There are practices in place that may be taking an overstep in the right direction, but without them, we may never have gotten where we are today.

Im glad that in your company you don't see privilege, whether it be white or black or purple, but, as I stated in an above post, these practices are more apparent in some situations/communities/companies/instances than others. Also, privilege is not always in clear view without careful consideration and awareness. This is not to say that you are just not noticing it in your company, but I think it is more of a blanket over our society than something that sticks out here and there.

In terms of your comment about African Americans not wanting to be electricians, it could be that people are generally funneled into areas of work based on some of their personal qualities (I, for example, fit the narrow mold that women should be teachers, my mother a nurse, etc.) Or not. Who knows.

Righting past wrongs. We will never right the wrongs of our society, but as advocates, active anti-racists, and workers to spread awareness, etc. we can work towards avoiding wrongs of the future. Should someone turn down an apartment because of the possibility that they were offered it over someone else because they are white and the other black? Should someone turn down a job because that organization is not practicing affirmative action? No. I deeply believe that we need more representation in our schools of the population that those schools serve. Did I turn down my job because I think my principal should hire someone that shares a language or culture with my students? No. But will I advocate in the future that more teachers be recruited who represent our schools population? Yes. Though, I will say, we should never hire someone just because they are Chinese, but we should hire a highly qualified person who represents the children in our school. I think that it would be silly to do the things outlined here, but, it is important that injustices be recognized and worked towards their abolishment in the future.

Another edit: Ron, I said it before and I'll say it again. I hope you don't feel like we are arguing, rather than sharing ideas, building on what the other has to say, etc. I think you and I share a lot of the same values, in that we believe in equality, do not discriminate when it comes to friends and acquaintances, etc. I hope that we share the same ideas when it comes to this conversation, too.

alieliza

Another edit: Ron, I said it before and I'll say it again. I hope you don't feel like we are arguing, rather than sharing ideas, building on what the other has to say, etc. I think you and I share a lot of the same values, in that we believe in equality, do not discriminate when it comes to friends and acquaintances, etc. I hope that we share the same ideas when it comes to this conversation, too.

I don't think we're arguing, at least now. And I don't think Obama won as a grandiose exercise in AA. He did it like any other candidate. A plan that started at the grass roots with people in the neighborhoods. With the democrats, Clinton, I think, had a stronger position. Obama came up as more of an underdog than McCain. And, as he pointed out in his Acceptance speech, he was never the favored candidate. He is not naive adn even though his phrasing was indelicate to assume that others who did not agree with him were bitter and clinging to their religion and guns, there are a number of people like that and I'm quite sure he and the Secret Service are all over that problem. And is, indeed, an example of how the american way should work. He doesn't have all the requisite qualifications to be pres, if there's going to be a list. No one does. As for the Constitution, I have the qualifications to be president, too. I'm way over 35 years old. I am a natural born citizen of the USA. And I have not been convicted of a felony. (Actually, I have no convictions. Just 3 traffic tickets since I started driving in 1981.)

As for representation, it is actually quite fair at the national level with the electoral college. Cities with huge populations get more electoral votes, since it is based on population. And cities are likely to have more concentration of the non-white ethnicities. If enough of these electoral loaded cities have enough of the minority population voting one candidate (51 %) the candidate wins those electoral votes in that city. If the candidate wins 51 % of the electoral votes in the state, he wins the state. So, in a state of say 34 ec votes, if he wins 18 by the slimmest of margins, he wins the whole 34. That's how Obama won. That's how Bush won. As for population, blacks and hispanics outnumber whites by quite a margin in Dallas. So, the word minority generally means political minority, rather than an actual minority in population.

A journey is one step at a time. Nor do I think Obama gets a "free pass." He's going to earn it, like everyone else. Not all senate and representative seats are decided in the general election. Other seats come up during the next 4 years and repubs could certainly affect those and alter the balance of the Senate and House. As my friend Lee said, (one of the phrases he learned in bud/s), the only easy day was yesterday.