Wildlife - where do you draw the line?

I am willing to live and let live. I understand that wild animals run on instinct, they don't sit down and discuss where they are going to travel and what they might encounter. Humans to a degree don't either for situations like this.

And while I think we are the villains in regards to the fact that we have taken more then our share of floor space for want of a better term, there are going to be hazards, encounters and death on both ends. That includes wildlife walking into cities and people walking into the wilderness. No, it does not always have to be this way, but deep down you know, you just know, it is going to happen anyway.

Most people don't encounter extreme wildlife on a daily basis, so your going to have the enthralled, to me those are the people who will get hurt, because they will forget to fear. Then you have people who think all wild creatures need to be saved and should never be killed, they forget common sense. And last but not least you have the sensible, these are the people who are going to do what they can to save the animal and the people both, in most cases, the people will win and the animal will lose. And the sensible one's get blamed by the former two types.

I am a sensible person. I know my place, I leave wildlife alone, if it comes to my home I need to defend it. I will do everything in my power to do that, but in the end I make the choice of  life, me and my own over the wild creatures, I will try to save us all but that is not always easy to do, easy to say, but never easy to do. And if cornered I am going to do the same thing, if it come down to kill or be killed, then I will kill. By the same token if I am in the wild, I do everything in my power to avoid wildlife, take safety precautions and proceed with both care and fear. In my setting the animal is more likely to die, in the wild, I am.

I know this is already long but I am going to share something that happened in 2002 at my parents home. The neighborhood bordered a farm that was trashy, raccoons began to invade the home area's, they were just awful. I went out one night to take the trash down and grabbed onto a can, only to look down at a raccoon sitting it, I ran one way, he ran the other. The garbage went down in the morning. My father trapped it, and took it to a forest preserve to let it loose, only to get a warning about trapping the animal and setting it free. He explained what the problem was and the ranger let him go. Fast foreword 4 months. I, my husband, our dog and 1 cat moved, a week later my sister, her daughter, her fiancé and 2 cats moved, my father went on vacation. My mother was alone, no dog, no cats, no kids, no one. Imagine her surprise when she heard a loud crash and animals running in my nieces former room. She called my sister, who called animal control. Due to some heavy storms the night before, a portion of the roof had been lifted, water poured in all night, it also weakened the ceiling in my nieces room and allowed 4 raccoon babies and one adult raccoon to fall into the house. They fell in the area of my nieces former bed. Imagine the horror if you will, 5 raccoons and a 9yr old girl trapped in a room together. We got lucky, they did a ton of damage to the room before animal control could trap them and get them out. Insurance paid for all the damage, since it was storm related. But nothing could have saved or repaired my niece or her friends had they been in that room. In this case everyone lived, but it could have been different. We didn't invite the raccoons, had no idea they were living in the attic. My parents are fastidious with the yard and garbage to keep them away, but they are so use to humans they refuse to move along and stay in the wild.

My father is a beast now with raccoons. He hates them with a passion, I know it is not a good reasoning, but I understand it.

So, with the case of the coyote and the cougar in Chicago, yes I am saddened by the outcome of both, but I believe that the deaths of both animals was something that could not be avoided. I do not blame the ones who dispatched them to another life.

So, in terms of where do I draw the line? When wildlife threatens me and my own on my ground, they lose.

I do what I can to eradicate some species, though I'm fighting a losing battle. I put ant killer on ant hills. I squash roaches whenever i see them. Noah should have gotten those two roaches when he had the chance. There are some checks and balances to nature. If a herd of deer gets too big and starts to strip the land, then coyotes and wolves increase in population as there is then plentiful food to support more. But I must care for my own species, first. To do otherwise is anti-survival and goes against the primary drive of biology, which is to procreate and populate.

Given where I live (Central Florida, USA - home to literally thousands of lakes all connected by the Florida aquifer) I likely see more 'dangerous' animals than most other US citizens.  I live in major suburbia and yet I know there is a gator family that live probably 200 - 300 feet from my house.  It's not uncommon to see turkey buzzards or vultures sitting in our trees out front -- as humans have taken up more and more of the land in central Florida the critturs have adapted.  Not always successfully.

People ... as in humans (supposedly the more 'evolved' species) typically are just plain dumb.  They feed feral cat colonies with temping wet food and yet they don't want the raccoons that feeding brings.  That also makes sure there is lots of 'food' for the gator population.  So they feed wildlife inadvertently and yet want to kill the gators and coons.  *sigh*  But just try suggesting that they might want to bring their cats INSIDE and keep them, and spay/neuter them and make sure they have rabies shots! Ohhhh no!!

Humans are notoriously stupid about gators -- if someone has a gator in their lake they'll often FEED the darned thing -- that has to be the most stupid thing they can do.  The gator then loses it's fear of humans, and ... when hungry ... it comes closer and closer to it's food source. 

But then the problem spreads because if the gator encounters resistance in one area, it will simply dive to the bottom of its lake and find the entrance to the acquifer and swim to another lake.  But ... this gator has now lost all fear of humans ... and it recognizes pets as simply "lunch to go"... and small children are simply pets on two legs, right??

So once a gator has attacked a pet they will kill it because it's only a matter of time before it threatens a human.

Humans tend to be pretty selfish.  We don't think ahead -- we had friends visiting this weekend and we were down near Ft. Lauderdale (southwestern FL -- beach area but to the west is the Everglades which is a largely uninhabitable swamp land).  We went on an airboat tour and honestly I wish we hadn't.

There are so many airboat "tours" in the location that they've pretty well scared away most of the indiginous wildlife.  So the tour "captains" FEED the wild birds in an area so at least people will have something to take pictures of.  They seek out gators to try to approach them (even in nesting season?  STUPID) -- and this airboart captain actually repeatedly went around and around this gator (just a baby ... it was only about 4 feet long which is YOUNG for a gator) and went TOWARD it repeatedly to get it to move and come 'at' the boat. 

The guy was just trying to give people something to oooh and ahhh over.  I think he was irresponsible and horrible. 

If people HAVE to have something to entertain themselves at least zoos can educate (I'm not thrilled with zoos either -- but it's better than invading an animal's normal ecosystem just for your enjoyment). 

Some of the Florida parks actually do a really good job of walking this line.  Silver Springs is on the Silver River and has a ton of wildlife at a safe distance from people and they've done a really good job of giving animals enough space and what they need to live normally -- the animals aren't all freaked and nervous.  They are protective of the animals (you can't get a straw in the entire park so people don't throw or lose them in the river) and police the visitors well so the animals aren't harmed.  They do a lot of rehabbing and are involved in the Florida Panther rescue efforts. 

It can be done safely and sanely.  But left to their own devices most humans are just plain too self-centered.  They want to be entertained and give little thot to what that may lead to.  *sigh* 

I am for trapping and relocating.....it is us, the human race stripping more and more natural area where wildlife is at home.....now, with roaches and ants and other nasty bugs I draw the line.......

I read your original post, and I think killing something because you honestly feel there's a risk to you or your animals in one thing.  It's entirely another thing to be driving around whacking something because it's there or because you don't particularly like it. That's just plain sick.

Joyce

snownose

I am for trapping and relocating.....it is us, the human race stripping more and more natural area where wildlife is at home.....now, with roaches and ants and other nasty bugs I draw the line.......

I so totally agree with you. 

 A bear cub was shot out of the tree in my parent's backyard 5-6 years ago.  Many people were outraged, especially since it was a cub.  It was on its own already, so over 18 months, but still clearly a young bear.  Now, when this cub was sighted it was sitting in the apple tree almost directly over my then 3 year old son who was playing on his swingset. 

My parents also live 2 doors away from an elementary school with a daycare as well.  This cub had already been spotted dumpster diving there after school hours.  He was quite thin for a bear going into mid fall.  He obviously wasn't doing well on his own. 

It was a fall, following the 3rd consecutive cancellation of the spring bear hunt, as well as a reduced time slot for the fall bear hunt.   The bears were overpopulating and being the top of the food chain and territorial, they were just spreading out.  This cub was forced into city limits, forced to live near a kids school, eating out of dumpsters, scavenging apples out of residential yards.  I felt awful for him. 

When he was shot, I felt bad that it had to come to that.  It never occured to me to be mad at the bear for being so close to my son in the back yard, though I know it was a dangerous situation.  But I was shocked at people's reactions.  They were outraged at the police and the MNR for shooting the bear dead rather than darting it and relocating it.  They wanted to just toss him out into the bush to live happily ever after, but it wouldn't have happened.  This bear cub likely never learned to live in the bush.  Hence the dumpster diving and apple stealing.  Had they relocated him, he would have died, of that I have no doubt.  But it would have been slow, from starvation.  Or possibly from a mauling from a bigger male.  

The thing that really got to me though, was that the people protesting this event, were also the ones protesting the spring bear hunt.  It just never occured to them why this cub was forced into this predicament in the first place.  The ban on the spring bear hunt was lifted the following spring.

I draw the line at self-defense. To defend myself or my animals, I would kill another animal.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with hatred or mixed feelings, IMO. There is no hatred. I don't have mixed feelings. Those animals (be it coyote, bobcat or wild pig) are just doing what they do. It's not personal. It's just that I love my animals and they are contained on our property. If a wild animal enters our property and threatens the animals living here, I believe I have a moral right to protect us.

I would do everything possible to encourage the wild animal to leave. The bobcat came because I had canned cat food outside. Never again. The coyotes come around but have never entered the fenced area. Same with the javelina. He can come here and graze as long as he leaves the animals and us alone.

There are certainly things I hate about the human animal, but protecting themselves isn't one of them. Hunting for food isn't one either. I'm not crazy about hunting for sport.

corvus

If a coyote or lion is hanging around suburbia, does it need to die?

I would prefer relocation.

I don't know if this answers your question... 

Over here we have monkeys and wild pigs, granted Hong Kong is one of the most populated places on earth, 8 million people living on top of each other. but out in the villages where I live it's still lots of people and lots of wild life. The birds are nice, until they eat my strawberries and grapes....but the monkeys...They are one of the reasons I have dogs. I don't want to see the fight between the dogs and a few monkeys, I know it will be nasty but it keeps them away.

 If guns weren't illegal here , honestly there would be dead monkeys. Think of genius raccoons with bad attitudes and you will see the problems we have in my village. These things can recognize shopping bags from the market, 7-11, cake shops. I've had them go after my wife to get after her shopping bags. I'm not even going to talk about what it's like when the lychee's are ripe and fermenting on the ground. (drunken monkey) Wildlife should stay wild, but us humans are expanding and it is going to be a live with it issue or not.  We are the smarter species so we will take over, until something smarter comes along and wipes us out. (probably cats,dogs or cockroaches)

The pigs...they used to be domesticated, now they are just wild and a pain in the a$$. Thankfully there are a few groups of licensed by the govt. hunters here that will come around and shoot them for you if they get to be a problem. (free range pork!!!!)

But until then I will use my bb gun and garden hose and bottle rockets to run them off, the government here doesn't do anything. They say don't feed them, but there are open rubbish bins with food in them. So of course you have a problem. Live and let live or live and die, either way it's nature. I get another monkey on my rooftop it's dead just like the last one, another pig going after my neighbors dogs or my dogs or chasing the neighborhood kids, pork in the freezer!

snownose

I am for trapping and relocating.....it is us, the human race stripping more and more natural area where wildlife is at home.....now, with roaches and ants and other nasty bugs I draw the line.......

 I also am for trapping and relocating when ever possible. If a human attack has already occurred then I believe the animal should be destroyed.

 I also believe that people should use some sense when it comes to wild animals. And I think that it is healthy for wild animals, especially large predators, to fear man. Thus I will and do try to deter large predators from hanging around in the backyard, it has nothing to do with hate, it has nothing to do with fear it is just being sensible IMO.

 Now as for people having sense, well in my area we would not have the coyote presence that we do if people would be responsible with their own pets. Too many people allow their pets to roam or chain them in backyards that have no fencing and then they get upset when coyotes eat them. Not to mention it just draws coyotes in for free lunches. There are even stupid people who put food out for coyotes (because they look so skinny) and that sure does not help the situation.

  I also believe in conservation and hunting to control populations. Years ago Southern California used to allow puma hunts, and the species was not heard about much in the news, then they banned the hunting and next thing you know there are numerous reports of pets being snatched from backyards and hikers and bikers being attacked and even a couple of deaths occurred. IMO hunting (done legally and controlled by the state) helps to manage the population of large predators.

  Coyotes are considered “vermin” here in NM and there are no restrictions on killing them, if you called for help with one in your backyard all that is going to happen is someone is going to come out and kill it for you. They just do not trap and relocate coyotes. Now if I had a bear or puma in the backyard they would come out and trap and relocate provided it had not already attacked a human.

 I love the outdoors and I love animals, there is nothing more wonderful than seeing a herd of elk, or a bald eagle, or a pack of coyotes or a bear or a puma in their native environment. I often sit on my back porch with a cup of coffee and listen to the yodeling of the coyotes, I hope they are always here, but I am also a realist and not your average mush ball animal lover. Nature is harsh, humanity is harsh, sometimes things die, sometimes you have to kill things, and this is the way of the world. Larger predators do not need to be in suburbia and it should never be encouraged. When it is encouraged then eventually someone or something will be injured or killed and then in most cases, the predator dies. How much easier to just teach them to avoid our homes.

   In the previous post it was mentioned that shooting a coyote with a paintball is torture. I do not see it that way. I see it as a moment of pain, to encourage him to leave and to avoid which very well could be the cause of him living a long life on the mesa. Remember he is “vermin” here and can be killed anywhere, by anyone whenever they wish. If I truly hated coyotes as it was portrayed by some in the coyote post, then I would be killing them whenever I see them. To date I have not killed one.

I am for trapping and relocating if possible....if there is a threat to us or our animals, well, I do believe in self defense and killing if necessary........and believe it or not.....if I noticed a coyote hanging around I would not be afraid to use a paintball gun to scare it off......if one decided to climb over a 6' fence and take on 4 or more large dogs then I must assume this animal is either crazy or sick......and then God help the poor creature.....

Don't get me wrong; I'm a conservationist and there are a lot of problem animals in this country that don't belong here and I love my natural environment more than I love them. I haven't signed the petition to give us access to the myxo vaccine despite losing a pet rabbit to it because I've seen a rabbit-induced desert and it was horrific. I hate what carp have done to our rivers. Foxes are eating our wildlife into extinction, but I still feel sad when I see one dead on the road. I also feel angry that people brought them into the country in the first place.

We do have problems with dangerous animals over here, but I guess the danger is of a different nature. Our snakes are pretty deadly and they only need a second to bite you. I have nearly trodden on a deadly spider in the backyard while not wearing shoes. In fact, my mother was bitten by one while doing the washing. But they're little animals and they try to avoid us. Snakes are usually relocated, but sometimes into captivity for antivenom production. I'd rather that didn't happen to them, because it isn't a very nice existence, but I spend too much time in their environment to fail to see the necessity of it.

We do have our crocs and sharks, though. Up in Darwin, they pull a hundred crocs out of Darwin Harbour at the start of every dry season, I think. They end up as handbags and burgers eventually, unless they're good breeding stock. I totally accept that you can't have crocodiles hanging out in the harbour of a capital city. I also reluctantly agree that it's probably far too expensive to relocate them all, and with the onset of the dry season, most likely a lot of them would die anyway. However, I was living up there when a croc took a boy in his late teens and I hated the way the community demanded the death of this animal, even though the boy in question was doing basically everything they teach you not to do around waterways up there to avoid being taken by a crocodile when he met his tragic end. A lot of people got nostalgic about the good old days when they could swim wherever they liked - because the crocodile was endangered at the time, as it happens. IMO, if you want to live in the Australian tropics, you've gotta accept that there's a lot of natural dangers in that environment and just don't take risks. The crocodile that took the boy was hunted, mostly to pacify the public, I think, but they couldn't find it.

Authorities over here at least seem to have a repeat offender policy. If they get more than one shark attack along a section of coast, they go hunting, although they usually don't try very hard unless the shark has clearly been targeting people, which does happen occasionally despite what they tell you. I agree that a predator that gets it into its head that humans are good meals should be destroyed if possible.

I can imagine what the racoons would be like. Two possums got into a dark room at uni one night and the mess the next morning was unbelievable. They were a little smaller than a racoon, and they're not as smart, and mostly herbivorous, but they make an unholy mess if they get inside houses. They get relocated over here because they're protected, but the species is extremely territorial and thrives in surburbia. Chances are relocated possums die before they find a home. Better would be to set up a nest box and leave the little wretches alone. 

I know I come off as a crazy animal nut, and I am, but I don't encourage wildlife, unless I can do so by providing habitat. As stunning as they are, I don't want parrots and lorikeets in my yard chasing off all the smaller birds that are doing it tougher in this environment. I would like to encourage those smaller birds, though. Gardens are important habitat for some animals. The Leaf-tailed Geckoes under the house are safe there, as are any deadly snakes that are feeding off them. If there was a bobcat under there, though, you can bet I'd be calling someone to come and move it somewhere more appropriate.

So I guess I draw the line at a level of risk. If it's likely wildlife is going to clash with humanity, the wildlife has to go one way or another, preferably the non-lethal way. But I'm happy to leave the wildlife alone if it will leave me alone, even if it's very dangerous in some way. I'm also happy to give it some space and a chance to make off on its own. Ask me again about those deadly snakes if one takes to sunning in my yard with my animals on a regular basis, though. You won't see me shooting paintballs at it, but then, it probably wouldn't learn from such encounters anyway and there are other, less confrontational avenues open to me.