clicker questions

I will tell you what I think and what has worked here....
 

ORIGINAL: JM

I posted this in the training section but wasn't getting any replies.  So I thought maybe I should repost elsewhere.

I just recently started with a clicker.  The pom has down, sit, and finger touching  down thus far.

So, my question is...sometimes, he gets the hand signals mixed up. 

Do I proceed in the same click/treat fashion until he is bullet proof? I say yes. Sometimes dogs only 'get' a command in a certain context - ie. they anticipate that down comes after sit, or they recognize body signals we don't realize - like I used to bend at the waist when I asked for a sit and that's what Scout was responding to. So I would keep up the c&t while mixing up the order and context of the commands. And be aware of your own posture and other signals you may be giving off - make sure your hand signal is the only thing giving the command so it's clear.

Sometimes I make him go through all 3 commands before I c/t.  Is this acceptable protocol? I think that's fine. Make sure you switch up the order of the commands so you see he really 'gets' what they mean.

Sometimes I can get him to do the commands with just hand signals.  No c/t. Is this acceptable? Sure - as he becomes confident with the commands you can transition away from the c&t. I would be giving treats randomly now, like the "slot machine" reinforcer - he may not get a treat, but there's always that chance.... so he obeys.

I don't want to remove a reinforcement too early and ruin my work.

Also, if he doesn't get a hand signal right, I stop for a few moments (no c/t) and then start over with him.  Is this okay? That's what I do.

Also Zeus is being a bit slow in this.  As he cared not for the clicker nor the treats most of the time. I have to catch him when he is hungry and he squints when I use the clicker.   We are making good head way though.

So my question is...is it okay to use the commands that he already knows to help him get the idea of what is going on? Did you 'load' the clicker - you know, c&t, c&t, c&t over and over so he makes the association?

TIA to all who reply.

And to those who spend 99.9% of their time pushing clicker training (bawahaa)..not only do I thank you, but my dogs thank you as well.

 
With Zeus, I am still loading the clicker.  So, that is a yes. He is going to be a tough nut to crack because he isn't food motivated.  But...he is an ace with the hand signals. I am a bit confused as to which approach would be best with him concerning the clicker. So, I am moving slowly slowly slowly.

And with the pom, I have noticed that he is paying as much attention to my body posture as he is my hand signals.  I recognized this yesterday. I was able to see what was causing the confusion.

Personally, I think he is responding more to that than the hand signals. So...I will work on that aspect.

I am really mixing up the commands often also.

Thanks for the reply and confirmation..  It sounds as if I am on the right track. I am going to stay with this for a while. 

Sometimes I make him go through all 3 commands before I c/t. Is this acceptable protocol? I think that's fine. Make sure you switch up the order of the commands so you see he really 'gets' what they mean.

 
I'm not so sure about this. Not to be contentious but I would only click once after all three commands if my goal were a chain of behavior that included all three. If I want them to be three separate commands I'd c/t after each one.
 
You might also have better luck if you only work on one command per session.

I'm a little confused by your post (I'm getting confused by a lot of posts, I must be tired). But I think my answer is, you should only be training and proofing one command at a time. If you're doing three new commands in one training session that's why the dog is mixing them up.

Well, I have a major update.  Tonight I was working with Zeus and he got it. He understands now.  I am pretty excited.

Last night I kept doing sits and downs and this one odd behavior he kept offering me. He kept rolling his head sideways on the floor...almost rolling himself over. I was c/t ing as fast as I could and incorporating a hand roll in the process.

Tonight I got that pretty quickly and he gave me a roll on his side. When he was flat on his side, I c/t then got all excited and hugged/petted and stuff.

After he ate his food, he just laid there with a funny look on his face.  I could tell he understood.  Then he got all embarrassed and  went into the other room to contemplate...or something.

This clicker is the best fun ever!

I am getting the impression (possibly I am not getting the jist of your post), that you are going too fast maybe? Are you doing a class, using some literature from the internet, or going by a book for your method?

You want to load the clicker first - that means no need to do anything - it's all freebies. You are building the expectation that the click sound will be followed by a treat. Sometimes those wise guy Border Collies who pick up the C/T sequence after, um, twice, I'll start asking for a look at my face rather than staring at my treat hand, but no commands, either hand signal or verbal. Most dogs I just work on loading the first couple times, no behaviors requested.

The next part depends on your method. I'm a shaper. I have fun getting the dog to come up with the behavior on its own. This translates well to a working mentality, too. So, for a sit, that's easy - a lot of times a dog will sit once they realize nothing's happening. If I get a down first that's fine. We'll do down first then. Most people, however, start with "watch" - that's a really handy one for encouraging good behavior. I don't want to encourage my working dogs to lock eyes with me as a default behavior, so we usually take a pass on that one.

Shaping means you doing 40 billion reps WITHOUT a command, before you start putting a command on it. And the command starts as the behavior is almost done first, then you work backwards (repeat, repeat, repeat) until you say the command (or use the signal) and the dog is doing it almost without thinking.

There's lots of different thinking on how often to reinforce and on what schedule - don't overthink it, read up on it and do what works for you. Sometimes you are doing so many things at once, that the schedule just takes care of itself (oops, forgot to C/T that one, oh, well!). Remember if you DON'T C/T something, that the behavior will increase before it goes away completely, so you'll have plenty of time to reinforce it if you get confused. In the beginning you'll pretty much be C/Ting almost everything anyway.

Don't worry about what you've done so far - I'd say go right back to loading and get her really sure she loves that clicker. For the time you are training, cut her food in half and get some dehydrated liver, or dried salmon snacks, or kosher hot dog bits (microwave or dry in the oven for a treat she'll do backflips over), roast beef, or liverwurst. You're only going to do this two or three days so you don't have to worry about precise nutrition. Afterwards use whatever treats you normally would but every so often give one of the wonderful treats you've found she'll really work for.

I think we are heading for our third week with the clicker.  We work twice day.

I have the pom doing the 3 commands and within the time I started the thread,  I now have Zeus offering behaviors.  Last night, he really understood that I need a behavior that is not standard (like a sit) in order to get a click.

Zeus already knows his commands and hand signals....so I wanted to go in the direction of him offering behaviors.

My problem with Zeus is, he is not food motivated and will only eat when he is hungry.  The pom will eat any time food is offered.