Alpha

i totally get what you are saying, and have wondered the same thing myself. i have heard it said that if you are truly the "pack leader" then there should be no other order besides that (thus, no other dog-specific alpha) but it also seems like there are same cases where the human is clearly alpha, but the dogs have their own order as well. not sure!

I think it's a ranking order.  If you clearly establish dominance over all the dogs, they'll recognize that, but it won't stop them from forming ranks amongst themselves.  In a wolf pack it's not just the alpha and then all the rest.  It's the alpha (pair), the beta, the middle ranking wolves (probably all have their own individual ranks) and then the omega.  The alpha definitely rules them all, but all the rest are dominant over the omega. 

 
I believe that even though a dog knows you are alpha they still have rankings between other dogs. I mean wolves definately know who the alpha is but the lower ranking members have a hierarchy too. Theres the beta pair and everyone else knows they are below them, and theres always the lowest ranking wolf who everyone messes with, but they dont mess with, say the beta or alpha wolves, just with the ones below them.
 
Dont know if that made any sense!

Thor is my alpha male, Sheba, my alpha (and only) bitch.  Everyone else pretty well bows down to those two.  Among Shadow, Thunder, Theo and Tyler they're all pretty equal.  Every once in awhile someone will try to show the others that HE's above them and Thor pretty much quells that with a dirty look.  I get a major kick out of Tyler...he was so afraid of the other boys for so long and now he runs with them, barks with them (yikes, another one who's found his voice) and nips Thor in the butt when they play.

I think it's a rank thing, and it's also very, very context oriented.  this makes it very complex to try to "rank" your pack, though most people can spot the alpha pretty easily.  Ranking roles are focused on privileges and resources - but the alpha may give up their rights because they don't particularly value one or more resource. 

So it's not always true that the alpha goes through the door first.  Your alpha dog may not care, and may allow even pups to go through before her.  Or you may have an alpha that doesn't care about food - I have one of these - anyone can take any food or chew toy away from her without dispute.  But they had better not try to shove through the door ahead of her or get in her space!  Ben, on the other hand, is the top male, but he doesn't care if other dogs trip all over him and he never tries to get through the door first.  Space isn't an issue for him.  But he can't bear to have another dog even look at his food or bones, and he owns EVERY female - if another male even looks at a female in heat around him, there will be hell to pay.  He is neutered, by the way, and has been since he was a pup.

I like Patricia McConnell's explanation of how pack ranking works, very much. 

Thats how Dingo is. Take what you want, but try to beat me out the door and you'll be sorry.

  amoung my 3 dogs,my Kovu,a 2 year old alaskan(possible wd mix)is esablishing himself over the others where once Kiara,my female husky ruled...Kiara is now the disciplinarian over the other 2,with kuruk(the wd)bieng lowest in the order..

lately,the two boys will get to playing,and if Kovu gets too rough,Kiara will step in and seperate them,and she takes no bs from either of the two when doing it.

all the pups know that my wife and i are the top ...as for our kids,we NEVER leave them alone with any of the dogs for any amount of time.i feel the dogs may think of the little humans as equals  and tho they have never made any agressive moves toward them,i would never take the risk..

 my Golden Retrievers were the most trusting dogs i have ever known,but again,i would never have left my kids alone with them.my boy Rebel had his share of hugs and ear pulls from our kids when they were little(nothing too hard,i always taught my kids to respect dogs,as my parents did with me)and Rebel would grumble and get up and walk away...its never been the dogs i distrusted for the most part,but the kids who might do the wrong thing with out knowing any better...

 kids need to be trained as much or more than the pups when it comes to living together...jmo..

kids need to be trained as much or more than the pups when it comes to living together...jmo..

 
Truer words were never spoken. Many people want a dog that can put up with a child doing all kinds of things to it. The way I was raised, there is a proper way to behave around a dog and you will behave properly or you will not be able to sit comfortably for a while. It was called discipline, back when parents were in control, not children. Some dogs just have a patient temperment and will put up with that, though it doesn't mean that they should have to. Shadow grew up at first, with a tomcat, a JRT, and the kids of our friend's son. But I still watch like a hawk when they play together. Rule #1, always supervise children and dogs. Rule #1a) I am responsible for Shadow.
 

Canine social structure is not like corporate structure. There aren't fixed positions. Some dogs step up to leadership roles in some contexts and are lower ranking in others. It's more fluid and complex than just Human is #1, Fido is #2, Spot is #3, and Rover is #4.

I can definitely say also that if you have intact dogs or bitches then sex also makes the mix even more fluid. I will also say that rank is passed on mother to pup....if a dam is subservient and meek her puppies will not be given as much leeway as the pups of a higher ranking bitch....I noticed this with my two girls and their litters.
 
Nonnie never disciplined Susie's pups even if they were being obnoxious....because Susie was dominant to Nonnie(this was odd becuase Susie and Nonnie seldom were with the pups together at the same time, but rotated in and out). Now that Susie is rehomed Nonnie will discipline Susie's puppies...but Susie's bitch pup is still dominant to Nonnie's even tho Nonnie's is larger. Susie never had a problem controlling Nonnie's pups...but she would allow them to hassle her a bit because she was a tolerant bitch. But fighting amongst the pups was always dealt with by Susie regardless of who started it...Nonnie would only intervene if her pups were instigators.

And how does Nonnie correct behavior or correct a pup?
 

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

I can definitely say also that if you have intact dogs or bitches then also makes the mix even more fluid. I will also say that rank is passed on mother to pup....if a dam is subservient and meek her puppies will not be given as much leeway as the pups of a higher ranking bitch....I noticed this with my two s and their litters.
 
Nonnie never disciplined Susie's pups even if they were being obnoxious....because Susie was nt to Nonnie(this was odd becuase Susie and Nonnie seldom were with the pups together at the same time, but rotated in and out). Now that Susie is rehomed Nonnie will discipline Susie's puppies...but Susie's bitch pup is still nt to Nonnie's even tho Nonnie's is larger. Susie never had a problem controlling Nonnie's pups...but she would allow them to hassle her a bit because she was a tolerant bitch. But fighting amongst the pups was always dealt with by Susie regardless of who started it...Nonnie would only intervene if her pups were instigators.

I think this depends upon the breed though.  Pharaoh Hounds raise their pups withina pack heirarchy, very similar to african wild dogs.  Everyone in the pack raises, cares for and disciplines the pups.  It doesn't matter whether the pups belong to the alpha bitch or one of the betas.  I will say this, sometimes when a bitch of lesser rank has pups the pack heirarchy is tipped a bit in the favor of the dam.

Ah but in a pack hierarchy only ONE bitch whelps puppies. The very act of having a litter...asserts dominance, so of course the pups should be cosseted by all, as they are important to the dominant pair. Humans have also messed with that aspect of dog society....as in my case....2 litters at one time. My bitches fought and that's how I knew both had "taken" after they were bred. Never a problem between them prior to that...
 
Only in cases with multiple litters and dams all running together could one see how it all shakes out....I did see one documentary on  the aforementioned Cape hunting dog, where the alpha bitch TOOK the litter borne by a lesser bitch and refused to let the other bitch so much as play with them. Any scenario where more than one bitch has a litter...is abnormal in terms of "normal pack dynamics"...

It's very interesting the way they do it. When they were younger....and they'd begin a bit of a skirmish...she'd simply bound into the middle of it, scattering puppies everywhere....they'd become distracted and then she'd bound off and they'd follow her and forget what they were "on about" before. She will also create space by bounding in an pushing at them with her muzzle.
 
Susie, was more of a take charge gal....she'd run over and pin the puppy making the most aggressive overtures...pin them bodily with her forelegs...and if they struggled she would open her mouth very wide and hold them down with that...until they yipped or went limp for a second. Then she'd let them up and lick them and they'd make the kissy mouth thing. Susie was a better disciplinarian than Nonnie...but that's mainly due to her rank..she expects better behavior lol! I have a video of her correcting very gently but purposefully...her 2-3 week old pup when it tries to dislodge it's littermate from a nipple. NO growling but a very firm shove with her nose "no...that's rude...there are other places for you to nurse" (true as this was the litter of 2).
 
Nonnie has only ever hurt Bracket, and that was when she was asleep and jumped RIGHT onto her...he got a slash inside his ear and bawled a bunch...he's fine now. He was exceedingly rude...and he is at the end of the puppy tolerant stage...being nearly 5 months old and he's male to boot! His leash is quite short with Nonnie now. Around 6 months of age things become more interesting as the pups stop being pups to the older dogs and become rude and obnoxious teenagers...corrections escalate accordingly...