Dog Community

I need to vent!

Posted : 7/20/2006 9:06:54 PM

Ok, I'm not a confrontational guy but I went off on this guy tonight at the dog park....

His dog was an american mutt, cute as all get out...probably about 5 years old. Xerxes was doing his usual "Pretty must play with me" routine. So I was keeping a close watch on him. She was a very cautious dog, moving very carefully with a close eye on her owner. Then I saw why...SHOCK COLLAR. I started up a conversation with him just casually asking him why he didn't want his dog to play with mine. "She's dog aggressive." Hmmm.

Me: So why bring her to the park?

Him: I've got her under control.

Then another lady came over and it became a 3way convo...apparently he hired a "trainer" who came over and in just 3 days he had a miracle dog that, through shock collar therapy, would listen to his every whim.

I asked him what other methods he had tried. None. So I asked him why he didn't try positive reinforcement of course he had no answer. I told him that his dog was obeying out of fear, not because she wanted to...as evidenced by her "careful" attitude and fearful posture. He shrugged his shoulders. It was obvious to me that this was not a happy .

And my friend from Doberman Rescue came tonight with Page, a 3year old female foster. Page is easily 30lbs underweight, you can count her ribs and verterbrae, you can see her shoulder and hip bones. She was an owner surrender because she was "dog aggressive." I also know that they abused her by tying her outside and possibly beating her. This doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body. I can tell she's protective, but not anywhere near aggressive. I sat next to the fence and, in that way that dobies have, she would come up and just stand near me. I think she knew I was already mad at the previous guy. She gave me little kisses on my ear and my nose. She is so beautiful and sweet. I can look at her and tell you she's from a good line, but wasn't adopted to the right home.

Why do people get dogs that they're not prepared for? Why and how can anyone hurt an animal that depends upon them? I'm not sorry that I feel this way, but I'd like to see abusive owners receive minimum sentences behind bars, not minimal fines that they don't pay.

I'll take some pics of her tomorrow and post them. Unfortunately because of breed specific renters insurance, I can't adopt her.

bluelighting

Posted : 7/20/2006 11:19:39 PM

Sorry to hear all about this.

If this guy's dog was so dog aggressive that it needed a shock collar then he shouldn't be letting that dog around other dogs. A shock collar would be my last option on training my dog not the first thing. Sounds like a really sweet dog just stupid owners.

Sorry to hear about the doberman, but at least she has a second chance on life. It's a darn shame what people would put their dog through then to give it a new home or put it in a shelter.

Valerie Wilson

Posted : 7/21/2006 12:23:28 AM

stupid person! An shock coller would only make a dog more likely to fight if shocked. The coller is not the first choice of training. That is not its purpose. It should only be used bo reinforce things the dog already knows well and you need to learn how to use it correctly. Bad idea and I feel sorry for the dog

scoobychick

Posted : 7/21/2006 2:16:59 AM

Xerxes you should have took the shock collar off the dog and put it on the owner. Let him see and feel what that poor dog was going through.

Sandy Gardner

Posted : 7/21/2006 6:01:58 AM

STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES! THAT POOR DOG WILL PROBABLY END UP IN A SHELTER WITH A BITE HISTORY BECAUSE OF YET ANOTHER MORON TRYING TO FLAUNT HIS EGO! I RECEIVE DAILY CONFIRMATION AS TO WHY I PREFER ANIMALS TO HUMANS....

Prince_Pride

Posted : 7/21/2006 9:33:19 AM

Please post pictures!! What area of the country is she up for adoption in? We are in the process of possibly adopting a sister for Prince...

miranadobe

Posted : 7/21/2006 9:57:24 AM

I'm setting myself up as the karmic scapegoat for all the folks who think e-collars/shock collars are abusive... but I've never been good with impressionist art...

I know plenty of dogs who are dog aggressive and are better managed because of the use of e-collars. Said dogs are HAPPY to see the e-collar coming because it means outdoor adventures and less pressure to make the decisions on what to do about that other dog. Dad said leave it, he backed it up, so I'm leaving it. The fact that the dog was hanging close to his owner could be interpreted as a good sign - that he wasn't sure what to do, but his default was to seek guidance from his owner/leader.

I'm not saying 3 days of training is what I'd consider a trained dog, and I wasn't there to interpret the situation. Sounds like you felt the dog looked scared? But to say the dog's perceived "cautious" behavior is attributed to the e-collar as a negative comes from a perception that e-collars are abusive. Not everyone uses their e-collars as "shock therapy" - which I interpret as electrocuting the dog with high voltages - and if that's what he said he was doing with the dog, I find that distasteful.

Why bring her to the park? He was probably trying to condition her. I'm not sure he chose the right venue if all this training was recent, and he does sound a little misguided if he thinks 3 days of training plus a visit to the dog park are ways to cure his dog of aggression. But he did seek professional help. Writing "trainer" implies you discredit this person because they recommended the e-collar. Did you mean to

oint out something else? Maybe the fact that he chose the e-collar before positive reinforcement? A "quick" answer instead of pursuing other options? I'm not sure.

Bottom line, you were there and you know what you saw. But what's written above doesn't say enough to me to immediately presume the dog's attitude was because of the e-collar as an abuse tool. It's possible that dog is a fear biter and the presence of the other dog(s) brought out a fearful posture... Just something to consider.

loveukaykay

Posted : 7/21/2006 10:22:39 AM

Well, it bugs me that he said he didnt try ANYTHING else first. I would think you should make some attempt before just resorting to shock collar.

That would be so great if that doberman could find a home with you Diane! WIshful thinking, but still... that would be cool.

mudpuppy

Posted : 7/21/2006 1:09:39 PM

Three days of training???? that's ridiculous. Not to mention that most folks strongly recommend not using ecollars for aggression issues. They work wonderfully well for proofing off-leash obedience-- obedience you already instilled in the dog via months of positive reinforcement work.

Christian H

Posted : 7/21/2006 1:14:49 PM

Thats horrible, of course a dog is going to become submissive if you are hurting it. In all my years with dogs, we have never used shock collars. You don't need to. And you will never develop a trust with a dog if you are hurting it. A long time ago when i was little, my dad was thinking of putting up an electric fence for the dog. Before he did though, he tried the collar on his hand, just to make sure it wasn't bad. To make the story short, we didn't set up the fence.

Rachel Slider

Posted : 7/21/2006 1:18:57 PM

I'm not trying to start an argument, but skock collars are not that bad. I personally have never used them (yet), but I am going to because my beautiful mutt chases cars up my road when he's outside. My neighbors used them on their two labs because their first lab ran away and was found shot to death a week later. Their labs are now trained to stay home and they do very well. Yes we all sat down there one day a played with the collars so we do know how they feel, and its not that bad, it's only a weird feeling. They have a warning beep so the dogs learns after a few times and listens after the warning.
There are times when things like shock collars are necessary, especially when its for the overall safety of the dog. So please don't bash them in all cases.

Xerxes

Posted : 7/21/2006 1:21:48 PM

miranadobe,

I do not think that every use of an e-collar is a horrible thing. I think that in certain circumstances they are probably a great thing, and using them can prevent the surrender of an animal.

What I objected and still object to is a)resorting to an e-collar without trying any other methods prior. b) having a smug attitude about it and c) watching a dog having a horrible time at the park.

The quick fix isn't always the best fix. The dog was in a fearful posture, crouched down, ears back, eyes upward, neck straight and tail tucked the entire time she was at the park. She moved very slowly, cautiously and carefully for the 45 minutes they were there. She had no fun, she wasn't allowed to play with the other dogs. If I were in the same position, with an aggressive dog, I wouldn't be going to the park.

Just my two cents.

loveukaykay

Posted : 7/21/2006 1:32:25 PM

Right. To those who say theyre not that bad... there not. I agree they can be effectively used BUT you should try other methods first or in conjunction. It should not be used as an easy fix or cop out for a lazy owner. Again, we dont know the situation, just speculating.

miranadobe

Posted : 7/21/2006 2:13:07 PM

Xerxes - Your 2-cents are worth much more than that and I appreciate them immensely! [

] I feel relieved, and I hope I didn't sound too confrontational in my earlier post.

What you described in your second post sounds very indicative of a highly stressed out dog, and the collar (prob in conjunction with the urge to get to the other dogs, but the force to restrain herself) is very likely the cause. Not to mention poor leadership from her owner.
I agree totally that the owner should not have tried the e-collar first. There are dozens of methods out there to work with dog aggressive dogs, but many take time and to resist them in favor of a quick shock to force submission shows a lack of dedication to what's right for the dog. I also agree that he should have a better understanding of his dog's limitations (bringing her into that dog park sounds very much like he was trying to show off his new $200 tool... and he ended up showing off what a tool HE was...)