Miniature Schnauzer VS. Miniature Dachshund

Fo whatever you choose, here are 2 places to look at with info on how to tell a good breeder from a bad breeder:
 
[linkhttp://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html]http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html[/link]
 
[linkhttp://www.sekcszoo.com/Puppy.html]http://www.sekcszoo.com/Puppy.html[/link] (this is from Meilani's website.  She is an Idogger ).

When my husband and I finally! decided we could own our own dog, we did extensive research on some of the smaller breeds. As much as we loved the dauschund breed, it was ruled out early for 2 reasons. First, I asked some of the vets in our area for some pros and cons on some types on our list. Most of the vets mentioned the dauschund's potential back problems. While all breeds have various health problems, they had seen a few more sad situations than the norm, with dauschunds.(That isn't to say most of the dauschunds don't  live a healthy, happy life. I know of 2 over 10 years who spend their days busily romping around.)   Secondly, while we are relatively younger retirees, we felt dauschunds might be more than we , as rather inexperienced dog people, might easily handle.   Anyway, in the meantime, we adopted our wonderful little miniature schuanzer, and can't imagine ever considering another breed.  I'm sure whatever little dog you will soon get will give you much happiness and vice versa.  Liz

Actually I have met a toy sized Schnauzer that was both healthy and had a wonderful temperament.
 
There is nothing wrong with gradually breeding down the size. NO breed like the Pomeranian, Yorkie, Maltese, etc. started out as small as they are. They're all man made breeds that were selectively bred for smaller size. Pomeranians were originally around 30 pounds. People see nothing wrong with them being 3-7 pounds because that's what they're used to seeing.
 
As I said before, the problem comes in if people are using dogs that are smaller because of health reasons- like a liver shunt or inbreed to bring the size down quicker. But there is wrong with selectively breeding down using healthy dogs.
 
There's a Giant, Standard and Miniature Schnauzer. What is so wrong with having a toy size?  Same thing with Mini and Toy Poodles; they were both bred down from the larger size.

Actually I have met a toy sized Schnauzer that was both healthy and had a wonderful temperament.

 
I'm ersonally acquainted with two "toy" Schnauzer breeders and I'm familiar with the reputations of a few others.  I know for a fact that they have a much higher mortality rate in their new litters compared to normal size Mini's and I also know for a fact that many of their offspring have experienced health problems that are not normally seen in the breed...including liver shunts.  The "toy" Schnauzer breeders that I'm familiar with don't even make use of the available health tests for the diseases that are already known to afflict the breed - let alone care about what new health nightmares they might be creating.  They don't breed for health, they don't breed for conformation, they don't breed for temperament....they breed for one thing and one thing only - size.  The smaller the better - because that's where the money is.  Well - that and the "rare" colors. 

NO breed like the Pomeranian, Yorkie, Maltese, etc. started out as small as they are. They're all man made breeds that were selectively bred for smaller size.

 
I'm not familiar with the history of those breeds but I'm sure that they now have breed standards which reputable breeders adhere to.  I'm not quite sure what the point here is ... do we want to eventually see every breed available in a scaled-down, drastically-altered version of it's former self?  Are you saying that it should be ok for Mini Schnauzers to be anywhere from 6" to 14" high, weigh anywhere between 2 lbs and 20 lbs., and be of any color and pattern under the sun?  Just stick a beard and eyebrows on it and call it a Mini Schnauzer?  How about creating a 15" Great Dane with zebra stripes?   

There's a Giant, Standard and Miniature Schnauzer. What is so wrong with having a toy size?

 Though distantly related and similar in looks - Giant, Standard and Mini Schnauzers are three distinct breeds.  There wouldn't be anything wrong with a Toy Schnauzer breed if those breeders were willing to actually create a new breed.  But to my knowledge, none of them are in the process of creating a new breed.  Creating a new breed entails developing breed standards, forming a breed club, getting it recognized, and carefully and methodically selecting breeding stock which consistently produce healthy dogs that meet their breed standards in size, coat and temperament, keeping records, sharing information and culling dogs out of their program which are found to have genetic defects.  That takes a lot of knowledge, dedication (love of the breed) and time (decades) to accomplish.  There is a big difference between creating a new breed and just arbitrarily miniaturizing an existing breed to be the latest and greatest pocket-dog with total disregard of what the breed is suppose to be.   The Mini Schnauzer was developed (in the late 1800's) by crossing Standard Schnauzers with smaller breeds, primarily the Affenpinscher.  They weren't "bred down in size" by breeding runt to runt, and they also weren't registered as Standards just so they could have papers and be more marketable.  Breeders of "toy" Schnauzers advertise them as "toys", but they register them as Mini's, because there is no such breed as "toy" Schnauzer.   Show me one "toy" Schnauzer breeder who does any one single thing...let alone all of the things that are considered "responsible breeding".   I'll be willing to bet that you can't find one.  All they do is pump out as many itty-bitty puppies as they can and sell them for big bucks.  Nothing more than new-age puppy millers.

How about creating a 15" Great Dane with zebra stripes? 

No need for sarcasm.

Creating a new breed entails developing breed standards, forming a breed club, getting it recognized, and carefully and methodically selecting breeding stock which consistently produce healthy dogs that meet their breed standards in size, coat and temperament, keeping records, sharing information and culling dogs out of their program which are found to have genetic defects.  That takes a lot of knowledge, dedication (love of the breed) and time (decades) to accomplish.  There is a big difference between creating a new breed and just arbitrarily miniaturizing an existing breed to be the latest and greatest pocket-dog with total disregard of what the breed is suppose to be. 

I'm perfectly aware of the many, many generations and years of hard work, meticulous record keeping, etc. that go into creating a new breed or variety. Some breeds like the Dogue de Bordeaux are STILL not recognized by the AKC and are in the foundation stock program. 

The fact is that there's a demand for toy Schnauzers among people who want a smaller package of that same breed. I don't think that is such a cardinal sin.

They don't breed for health, they don't breed for conformation, they don't breed for temperament....they breed for one thing and one thing only - size.

Here's at least one breeder of  toy Schnauzers that doesn't only breed for size.

[linkhttp://www.toysinthegarden.com/]http://www.toysinthegarden.com/[/link]

I'm not going to hijack this thread any further by discussing the morality of breeding toy Schnauzers.

I am owned by two mini dachshunds and some can be hard headed with house training  and they can chew (puppyhood and adulthood). Dachshunds come in many many colors from piebald colors, dapples, double dapples, brindles, sables, black & tans, chocolate & tans, blue & tans, black & creams, creams, reds, wild boars. They are pron to spinal problems, eye and knee problems as well. But I have to say they are the most loving little things. They love to give kisses. Some dachshunds are lounge hounds, I have two like that. They are some dachshunds that only see one person in their lives and they well stick to that person like a little shadow. I love the smooth coats and the wirehaired coats myself. As for breeding I would go with a breeder that register their dogs.

No need for sarcasm.

I wasn't being sarcastic.  I was giving an example of what a different breed might look like if they were bred down to half their normal size with a crazy coat color and pattern that is completely off-standard for the breed.  The thought of someone intentionally breeding such a Great Dane sounds ridiculous, and that's the way that I feel about these tiny Schnauzers.  Sorry, I can't help it.  I'm passionate about the breed and about breeding ethics.

I'm not going to hijack this thread any further by discussing the morality of breeding toy Schnauzers.

The OP asked for input about Mini Schnauzers and is apparently considering purchasing from a breeder, so I don't think that we are hijacking the thread with our discussion.  If you don't wish to discuss it any further, that's fine, but when the OP is ready to purchase a pup - of any breed - finding a reputable breeder will be an important first step in her search for a healthy, well tempered dog.  And quite honestly, the link you sent is a good example of the type of breeder that I would tell people to avoid - even if she weren't breeding tiny Schnauzers.  She only gives a one week health guarantee for genetic defects.  That is virtually useless.  Almost all of the genetic defects that we see in the breed reveal themselves much later in life.  I don't see any mention of CERFs or puppy eye exams.  It *sounds* like she crops ears at the age of 2 weeks.  She offers her males up for stud over the internet and apparently doesn't require a spay/neuter contract on her pups.  All of those things would be red flags for any breed. [color=#000000]And I'd like to say just one last thing and then I'll stop beating this horse.  In that link, one of her females weighs just under 7 lbs and is only 8" tall.  She says that she expects to get "teacup" Schnauzer puppies from her!  I can't even imagine how small a "teacup schnauzer" might be, but it would have to be fine-boned, delicate and fragile and that is absolutely not a matter of the "same breed in a smaller package".   [/color]

I love my mini-dachshund.   Loki makes me laugh and smile on a daily basis and I love it when he follows me around or does something goofy. He has such a personality that he ends up being the center of attention wherever he goes. He's soo smart too.. he picks up commands very quickly (not that he always chooses to obey them...). Just last week I taught him to give me five in about 10min. Its amazing what a dachsie will do for a treat! I'm not crazy about my dog or anything!

As for housebreaking.. I dont think he was that difficult but as he is the only dog I've ever had I wouldnt know - but, I wouldnt say he's 100% trustworthy either at this point either. He has some issues with peeing in his crate, but that might be from his early life (he was a surprise x-mas gift to me from a pet store; NOT a good way to get a dog). 

Anyway, I vote dachsie!

I ditto all Loki has to say.  Zoe too is the center of attention everywhere.  And I find wherever I go, people either have a dachsie, want a dachsie, or know someone who has a great dachsie.  Someone the other day told me to look away because they wanted her hehe.  And, she does make me laugh and smile on a regular basis as well.
 
As for the crate peeing... I have discovered now that Zoe is over it unless something sets her off.  For example, on the rare occasion that one of us were to come home and leave her crated a while (she is used to us coming home and letting her right out) we find she pees in there.  She is probably so excited!  Anyway, our easy solution to that is we leave a comfy pillow in the crate and cover it with a soft, reusable potty pad (human hospital grade... under $10) and then we just wash that if we see pee on it.  It absorbs quickly so the doggie doesn't get wet or smelly too.

To the OP, what is your lifestyle? What is it you want out of a dog? What is it you would like to do with your dog (i.e. do you want a couch dog or a outdoorsie dog)? I think it would be easier for us to recommend a breed if you told us a bit more about yourself [].
 
 

WOW WOW WOW....there's so much to intake! But it was all great info from everyone!! I gotta thank everyone who contributed to this thread -- everyone's got so much good and helpful info! And may I add, some of you made some very good points on the breeds! Thanks for the links too! []

Jeano -- You are funny!

Pumaward -- Do you have a HUSKY!?!! I am sooooo jealous!!! I am so in love with them but cannot have one. I live in an apartment with my boyfriend so it's not very spacious for big dogs. That's why I am looking into having a small dog. I like what a Schnauzer has to offer and I also like what a Dachshund has to offer, but couldn't decide so needed some pros and dog lovers for advice. Generally speaking, I would like my dog to be fairly active, good energy, has a good vibe, fun, and loving -- likes to be outdoors as well as indoors. I have a friend who's got a Malt and she's always saying that her dog is trapped in a cat's body -- doesn't like to take walks, likes to sit by the window and sunbathe, likes to sit on her lap like a cat. So yea, no dogs who acts like cats for me! So now that you know a little more about my lifestyle and what I'm looking for, which breed would you best reccomend??

I agree Kelly. When I read the word teacup on that site I literally felt sick to my stomach. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they trim their dogs like cocker spaniels. If they're breeding toys they obviously don't know or care how a schnauzer is supposed to look. They don't care about health or size, why should they care about grooming.

[sm=uhoh.gif] [sm=banghead002.gif]

Pickleweed:
Zoe loves to go on walks... and we often do 2 miles.  I am sure she could go further because she shows no signs of being tired then.  She loves to hike and has done at least 4 miles.  She loves to play fetch and just play around the house and she is also fabulous at being a lap dog.  She cuddles very well!  She is also a guard doggie for us .  I cannot speak on behalf of schnauzers, but a dachsie would definitely fit your lifestyle .