Talk me out of Dobes and GSDs :)

Sorry, I can't be of any help.  As much as I love my Lab(s), I've wanted a Dobe since I was 12.  And the more I read about them and meet them, the more I want one.

If you're looking for someone to talk you out of Dobes...I'm NOT the person!

I've wanted one for years, and am seriously looking to get one in the next year or couple of years. Through researching I've learned a lot, but I have never owned one so I can't give you first hand advice. What I do know is that Dobes are SMART and to train them you've GOT to be the leader from day one, or they (generally) will try to assume that position. They can be dominant, with males typically being moreso. You have to socialize, socialize, and socialize some more, because this breed is naturally more leery of strangers than many others. Dobes need a ton of exercise as well as mental stimulation, though you have experience with that with your flat coat. Dobes need a soft hand at training (it is a sensitive breed), yet you have to be the one in control. They are loving, family-oriented dogs who love to please their owners but can be too smart for their own good and you have to think one step ahead of them in training.

Sorry this is just a bunch of random info but I'm about to head out the door. I do have some good links in my favorites, and will post them later.

Good luck with your researching.

I saw the subject line and I immediately thought:  Now, why would I do that? 

I've always thought that Ari's puppyhood was very much like Heidi's.  Crazy baby mouthing, full of spunk, hard to handle. Frankly, if you can handle Ari, you can handle a high spirited GSD, that is not to say that all GSDs are like Heidi.   Genetics come in to play, but you've been introduced to a high drive pup already; and its all in how you raise them.  I honestly never thought that Heidi would be a loving, sweet dog, based on her puppyhood.  But, she has proven to be just that as she matures.

My two GSDs are completely opposite in nature.  Heidi is very high maintenance, needing lots of exercise and mental stimulation; I could go so far as to saying she is neurotic (what you might call ADD) and over the top high spirited.  Bruder is happy being a couch potatoe and just chilling out with everybody.  He requires exercise, of course....but he is much less energetic.  Heidi comes from a West German Showline; Bruder is mostly American bi-colored GSD, mixed with something, I think Husky. 

I've done both now....buy from breeder and rescue.  For you, in particular, I would recommend adopting a bit older pup, perhaps around a year old or so.  This way, you can bypass the tough puppy stage that you endured.  Rescue organizations can match you up with the approprate pup or dog too...and will take into consideration your current situation.

Ari would do well with a little brother.  I would highly recommend a male and not a female to join your family.

ETA:  You would train your new addition the same way you trained Ari....positive reinforcement and clicker training (if you like).  The way they learn may differ, but it won't be any problem for you determining how your methods could or should be adjusted based on their temperments.

I have owned both (dobes for 25 years, then shepherds 1 german the rest belgian). 

 Actually a flattie is likely good prep for either.  Obviously, Dobes are weather whimps compared to GSDs.  That does not mean they dont like to go out in the cold to play with you, just that rain and cold are going to be more of an issue with them.  (ie.  potty times go much faster in cold rainy weather when it is a dobe verses a GSD). 

Both are reactive (as is a flat coat).  I find the herding dogs easier to redirect than the dobermans.  Both have significant health problems to research prior to getting a puppy (most rescues have some idea of health if you go that route).  They seem to have about the same general life spans with dobes more prone to cancer and heart issues.  GSDs seem to be more prone to autoimmune, although dobes are at risk for hypothyroid.

I find the GSDs "easier" to train than the dobes, I think it is related to the need for biddability in the herding dogs.  Dobes I feel are bit more independent in their team work. I find the herding dogs are more reliable off lead etc earlier in their training than my dobes were.  

Lots more hair on GSDs  so I hope you like to vaccum, there is hair on the dobes too;  it is just not as noticable unless you wear white.

Not that I am partial or anything, but I like the Belgians best.

moved to "Breeds"

 I think I'm gonna lurk on this thread since I need some convinsing that I don't need a Dobe right now. Lol...I had a dream last night that I had talked Alex into letting me get a dobe puppy..

Sharon, based on your posts and threads about Ari and her puppyhood, I think you are quite well prepared for a GSD!  I cannot speak to Dobes, never had one, but Nikon is a high drive, high energy GSD (TD says he is just as good as any working line/working bred GSD) and I don't think his puppyhood has been half bad compared to Ari.  So I would certainly not expect any worse from a GSD, as far as the energy, hyper activity, the nipping and mouthing, barking, etc.  You may get sort of the same thing (one of the pups in Nikon's litter was much like that and was returned) but as far as the early puppyhood stage I think you are pretty well prepared.

Since I've not owned anything but GSDs I can't really compare to retrievers other than what I know of retrievers based on family.  I don't know if Ari fits, but the retrievers owned by the people I know can "work" (like retrieving for real, or even just retrieving in play) with as much drive and intensity as my GSDs but when not working they mellow out and settle a bit more, mostly as far as being social and sensitive to the environment.  Now I'm not saying my dogs are high strung all the time, but from what I see they are more alert/sensitive to the environment, more keen on where I am and what I'm doing, and less interested in interacting with other dogs and people.  At least for a GSD, early socialization and acclimation to a wide variety of environments is really important if you want a well-rounded sound-headed dog.  Yes, genetics sort of create a limit at both ends of the temperament and soundness spectrum, but it's up to you to bring out the best in that dog.  Also, being GSDs I often feel that my dogs are held to a higher standard, or maybe that's just me, because of their reputation so I have to have complete control at all times and they have to be extremely well-mannered and behaved in public. 

GSDs tend to form very strong bonds with just one or two people, so do not be surprised if you ended up with a dog that is totally aloof to strangers (NOT afraid, just indifferent) and not really interested on being a "dog park" dog that loves to play with other dogs.  My GSDs are quite bonded with each other and Coke and the three of them make a great pack with some fun dynamics, but they are not interested in other dogs.  Kenya is pretty aloof, she might play with some but usually just doesn't care, but Nikon can be quite abrasive, especially in his adolescent, intact, I-have-something-to-prove stage right now.

GSDs are such an imensely popular breed there is a huge range of temperament and drive as well as their health and health problems.  Really the key is finding a reputable rescue that has what you need, or a really good breeder.  If I were you, I might actually be more inclined to start with a dog from a good breeder since rescues often have limited information about the dog and sometimes haven't fostered the dog long enough to really give you a clear picture of its temperament.  A good breeder needs to know their dogs inside and out and be able to match YOU with the dog that is right for YOU.

As far as training, unless you are training for something specifically I don't think it would be any different.  Even Nikon who is a Schutzhund dog had all his foundation using positive training, drive building, making him feel like he's the $***, so to speak.  Just this month some compulsion has been introduced but because of the type of dog he is and how his foundation work was done, it's not going to shut him down in any way.  In general, I'd say train using positive methods and at home use a lot of NILIF.

I read the title of this thread to Kord and his response was a very manly head tilt with ears forward and a:

"SAY WHAT?" expression on his face............

Sorry cannot help you there!

 I'm definitely not a good person to talk you out of either, because i love both soooo much!! Looks like Lies already hit you up, i consider her the GSD source!

Personally, i prefer the dobe. I think they're pretty similar in that they're both highly intelligent and very active dogs. GSDs seem to be a little more serious and easy to train. I just love the sense of humor that dobes have. Kaiser always wants to be in the same room as me, but Josie has to literally be on top of me. She is HIGHLY affectionate. When i picked her up from the breeder, i had 2 full size dobes trying to sit on my lap...and they would nuzzle your face if you stopped petting them. Dobes also tend to be a little more stubborn- Josie conveiniently "forgets" how to sit sometimes when i don't have a tasty treat. Both of mine were bad puppies, but i remember Kaiser being really good by 6 months. Josie still like to tear up my shoes and get into things at this point. If i were serious about a working dog- i would want a GSD, but i like the rally/love on a leash/agility route a bit better.

 With both it's crucial you find a good breeder. I feel there are more better GSD breeders. I would encourage you to join the GSD board at germanshepherds.com and the dobe board and dobermantalk.com. I joined dobermantalk 2 years before i got Josie, and i'm sooooo glad i did. I would've definitely made the wrong decision in a breeder if i didn't. Oh yeah, with GSDs hair sucks, with dobes posting ears sucks. I don't think you could go wrong with either breeds...

 Yeah you guys are defintiely not "helping"   The cold weather tolerance is a factor.  The SO is more so active in going out in the winter, and he loves having Ari along (if I could get away with it I would just hibernate!).  So I guess our little stinker, Miss Personality, was good training for us if I decide to try to talk my SO into one of these two breeds lol. Ari has enough of a sense of humor lol, I wouldn't mind a more serious dog, and perhaps one that is more aloof with people and other dogs outside of their "pack".  Our next dog will definitely be a male :)

I will join those two boards :)  We researched a good 2 years before we got Ari, so I know we won't do anything less this time around!  

I would love to write more, but I sprained my finger and I'm not good at this crippled typing thing...so a biiig thanks for all your help lol.   Now I'm even moooore interested.  It doesn't help I saw a GORGEOUS GSD down the road today.  He looked older and he was hanging out with his family just looking relaxed and enjoying the first bit of sun we have seen in awhile!

You already know that I think that a dobe would fit in perfectly to your home, so I won't try to talk you out of one. 

GSD hold up great in cold weather!  I got Nikon in late October so he was a wee pup all winter.  I remember before his adult coat came in he would get so wet and have lumps of ice and snow stuck to his puppy fur and he'd be so pissed off when I'd make him come in to thaw!  My dogs all LOVE the snow.  They hold up pretty well in the heat, too.  We take it easy on intense days but I've never had to ice my crates or put cooling blankets on my dogs.  They know how to cool themselves as long as I give them water, shade, and airflow.