Working pit bulls?

 I'd check this out - http://www.wpbtca.com

 It's possible that Rafe has pit in him, and I can tell you that he is a particularly drivey dog.  He has great obedience because of his drive, but during protection he is almost all prey drive, and hardly any defense drive.  That's probably a big thing with the pitties, from what I hear anyway.  But, unless you were wanting to do high levels of whatever protection sport, I think they'd be just fine.  :)

DumDog

 i read somewhere - and dont know how true it is - but at one point Sch. changed their rules to exclude all breeds except German ones because certain American breeds were getting all the attention.. but of course, the rules were changed BACK to allowing anyone to enter.

still, i dont know if thats true..

It's not true, ANY dog can do SchH.  I know someone who wants to put a BH on her hairless Chinese Crested.  There are mutts with SchH titles.  The AWDF nationals took place last week and they had GSDs, Mals, pits, ambulls, boxers.

I'm not interested in using a pit for protection or guarding, merely the training and sport aspect of working this type of dog.  The bitework phase of SchH is just one phase and they are all equally important.  A SchH dog is much different from a PPD or police K9 type dog, the bitework has no practical application as far as personal protection or guarding.  It's all basically drive development and courage test.

Liesje

but not ones breeding those pit bulls that look like they've been on hormones since birth?

Those arnt "pit bulls" at all. Those are hippos. Bullys are working dogs and americans have ruined the breed by judging the dog on the circumference of its head. I love all dogs but i cant stand pits with huge heads and short legs that look like they can barely walk. Jessups website workingpitbull.com is one of my fav bulldog sites. If i were ever to buy a purebred dog from a breeder, it would either but a working pit or a working german shepherd to do schutzhund with. Ive always wanted to get into the sport, i dont know too much about it, i only have 1 book on it, but from what i do know its deffinetly something i want to do. 

 i dont see how you can blame America as a whole for the ruination of the pit bull. blame the show breeders, or gang bangers, but not everyone in the US agrees to this. what they are doing is recreating the english bulldog, using the same excuses "Well we want to make it calmer, and more family friendly and get rid of the bad reputation" thus they turn it into a large headed mishapen dog that gets winded too easily. but you still have many, if not more, people who prefer the working bred pit bull and have just as much success with it as a family dog - which has been my experience with the breed. i know a few hog hunters who keep pits as both family and working dogs, and no hippos among them.

DumDog

what they are doing is recreating the english bulldog, using the same excuses "Well we want to make it calmer, and more family friendly and get rid of the bad reputation" thus they turn it into a large headed mishapen dog that gets winded too easily.

  This is so true! I have been saying this for years now - we can see first hand Engliah Bulldog came about by seeing what some breeders are doing with pit bulls now. It is hard to imagine English Bulldogs ever being functional working bull dogs but some lines of APBT are getting closer and closer to that type now. It doesn't take long of breeding for "ultra type" to vastly change what a breed looks like or at least, some lins of a breed. In breeds which have smaller gene pools, this often means the end of "working type" dogs of that breed because breeding for "ultra type" tends to produce dogs who can't physcially do their job and even if they could, they don't have the drive to anyway because the focus is no longer on breeding for it. This is an interesting article on ultra-typing and purebred cats: http://www.messybeast.com/ultracat.htm

DumDog

 i dont see how you can blame America as a whole for the ruination of the pit bull. blame the show breeders, or gang bangers, but not everyone in the US agrees to this. what they are doing is recreating the english bulldog, using the same excuses "Well we want to make it calmer, and more family friendly and get rid of the bad reputation" thus they turn it into a large headed mishapen dog that gets winded too easily. but you still have many, if not more, people who prefer the working bred pit bull and have just as much success with it as a family dog - which has been my experience with the breed. i know a few hog hunters who keep pits as both family and working dogs, and no hippos among them.

I didnt mean all americans. Just the ones who think what makes a good pit is the size of its head. The area i live in really isnt that nice of a place. I could take a walk down my street a probably find at least 1 or 2 adds for "pit bull" puppies on telephone poles. I know of 1 "good" pit breeder in my area. Not good as in bloodlines or anything, just good meaning they take care of the dogs and they are pets not just a money maker. Id say at least half the people on my street have pits (or hippos) chained in their backyards. It kills me that i cant just go out and save them all. I dont think any dog should live its life on the end of a chain. IMO its those type of people that give the pit bull its reputation. Dogs chained and unsocialized in the backyard for years until it gets loose or some kind wanders too close and gets bit. Then of course its the all dogs fault.

totally agree with you Spazzy on that. you know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... you'd THINK people would learn by now... 1. what happened to the EB etc, 2. chaining dogs for their entire lives without at least taking it out for walks or stimulating its mind and body in some form or fashion....

 I think what is preferred depends on one's personal preference. Their are many still loving the GSD for it, others that go with Dutch or Belgian Shepherd, Rottie, Corso or Dobie. However American Bulldog and APBT are both a good choice. (I've had and like both these breeds, so maybe I'm a little biased though I've also had some mentioned above.) There are also a host of other breeds too. 

 APBT's have done well in SCH, OB, agility, dock diving, weight pull, ect. They are usually apt to please and have plenty of strive. A lot of them could excell in many fields if they were given the chance. They love to be mentally and physically challenged IMO. They are also quick learning and obey very well. There is always going to be variance in temperament, drive and energy level, biddability too. I've found that some of the very high energy dogs are not as quick to learn or maybe listen, they are more impulsive too, some anyway. It takes more repetitions for them to get something down but they are willing to learn and work. Though the combination of training-obedience/play-work is good for them mentally. The ones which are more mellow but still drivey tend to listen and learn quick at times and when its needed put their all in full throttle, putting just as much into it as a hyper dog that has lots of energy all the time. 

If you want to avoid those type stay I'd away from American Bullies. There are some exceptionally nice AmBullies, they are a larger boned dog but balanced, not kept fat but lean and muscular and they actually work. But those owners/breeders are few and far between. Most are overweight dogs bred for the "hormone since birth" look as you describe it, no proportion and sadly some are actually deformed and people think it looks "cool".

 I'd recommend going to a breeder that does these things with their dogs or one who is breeding dogs with the temperament you desire, along with a good structure and drives. Many people who do actually do these things with their Pits did not go to a breeder that actually did SCH or OB with their dogs. They sought a driven dog and put the training in.

Of the top 20 UKC super dogs currently 8 are APBTs, 4 of the top 5 are APBTs with a tie for first with a Beauceron (another breed I admire). 3 of the top 20 are SBT too. In top 21-40 10 are APBT and 4 are SBT.  Many love to be doing something, working with their owner. So I think it is quite possible for you to use an APBT if that is what you desire. They are most certainly a versatile breed.

 What I would like to do is for our club to have some sport events that the dogs can really enjoy. A lot of people do the tradition weight pull which is fine, but there is so much more that some of these dogs really like to do. I'd like to add at least sled sprint, hang time, high jump, treadmill race and lure coursing. One dog from my litter is a CH which is just about looks, they took her to be evaluated for possible sport training, which she did very well, when they said they wanted to train for that I said go for it. At one point they had looked into lure coursing, you can do it for fun but NOT for competition without a sighthound. Seems very unfair to me. I know it is something made specific to that breed type but if anything they could separate sighthound and non sighthound competition.