Breeder question

Lani would know more from the male side. Personally I will always prefer to own and start with, bitches. The males get a lot of the accolades and blame lol...but the bitches are where IMO a lot of your focus needs to be.

I would purchase the best bitch you could afford titled or not, and take your mentors advice on where you want to go with her...plan on keeping a pup or more than that, and think ahead about what exactly you want to bring to your breed that isn't already present...or maybe something someone else like your mentor has going that you want to continue on with and add your own spin to.

Just some ideas...I am sure others will chime in with more. And take your time...don't be in a hurry...absorb all you can and really KNOW your breed before you do a breeding.

Be ready for the highest of highs....and the lowest of lows. And to spend money...LOTS AND LOTS of it.

rwbeagles

Be ready for the highest of highs....and the lowest of lows. And to spend money...LOTS AND LOTS of it.

LOL! Yeah, I've heard about the amount you need to spend on this.. Which is why I'm waiting a few years. 

I do plan on getting a bitch but I don't think Maze would let me bring in another female just yet.  So really I'm waiting for her to get a bit older before I bring in another female. 

It probably depends on the breed.

With GSDs being very popular and having many different lines and types, yet being a very young breed with a lot of linebreeding, it's very important to really know lines, pedigrees, what dogs improve what or throw what problems.  There's a TON of linebreeding in some lines so you really need to know a lot about what you are breeding, farther back than just 3-4 generations because at least in the Am line and west German show lines, a huge majority of the dogs go back to a dozen or so.  I've thrown myself into this breed for about 3 years now and am *just* now getting to the point where I can look at some dogs and predict their lines/parentage and that sort of thing.

I have found that just through the process of training, titling, joining the clubs and breed orgs, and being out at GSD shows once or twice a month, I keep changing and refining what it is I personally like and don't like, what I'd be looking for if I were breeding, etc.  I'm not interested in breeding but if I were, I'd wait until I had a very clear, specific goal for my breeding program.  Set yourself apart from everyone else with your breed, give them a good reason to choose your dog over all the others.

I'm actually in your position now because I'd rather own males and I'd rather be more involved in training, showing, and titling than breeding and whelping.  Also I think kennel-blindness is a HUGE issue in GSDs right now and it's really turned me off to breeding.  People ask me if Nikon's a stud dog and I laugh because he's a puppy!  Maybe he will be, maybe not.  It's impossible to tell right now.  I would not breed him ever unless he met all of *my* own criteria.  Also, financially I can't do it right now, no way.  When we bought our van the salesman kept apologizing for all the paperwork and I just laughed and said you think this is a lot of paperwork, try registering a dog conceived in a foreign country!  Nikon alone has 4 registries (AKC, UKC, WDA, USA/SV), tattoo and microchip certification, USA and WDA scorebook, AKC DNA, Avid microchip registration...on and on...plus the paperwork for every show, title, and event.  My tax files pale in comparison to my dogs' paperwork!  After all that, plus the money into training, proper care, proper nutrition, transportation to events (this is a HUGE one for me, way more expensive than the events themselves), show entries, titles, etc. I can't afford to do all this for more dogs for a kennel, plus the costs with whelping and raising pups.  My mind is spinning just thinking about it!  Good breeders are selfless! *bows*

oranges81

I don't think Maze would let me bring in another female just yet.  So really I'm waiting for her to get a bit older before I bring in another female. 

here's another thing. Your dogs will not always get along . You must now be prepared for separating...sometimes permanently, certain dogs. That is also...part of breeding. Little will be accomplished if you plan on having only dogs that get along. If the best pup in the litter does not like Maze or vice versa, then you can choose to place the pup with someone else...co owning, out of your sight and to some small to great extent, your control...or make arrangements to make your household work. Hormones, heats...hierarchy will always be a part of a multidog household where breeding and pregnancy and puppies are part of life.

My bitches for ex fight when they are pregnant or have pups. I have accomodations for them when they do, just for that reason, and they are spayed straight away when retired. It's a must IMO to be prepared for the different personality types that will come in. Esp if you have a male that will be entertaining ladies....they must be kept safe at all costs...so decide now where/what kind of living situation you will want to have. Esp also...if you have a breed that is known to choose their canine friends very carefully (Terriers for ex).

Numbers grow while you aren't looking And the whole point of breeding is to keep and move forward. So if you are keeping your gals and your oldies and your retired stud...just find a limit you (and don't forget about those who live with you, AND around you!) can live with.

While you are at capacity of 4, that young beautiful bitch...becomes an old maid, after all...good responsible show homes, do not grow on trees! lol...so it's a balance you have to kinda get into a rhythm to maintain.

Don't forget...about logistics

 I know not all dogs will get along.  I was just hoping that if I waited til Maze mellows out, it'll be easier to bring in a female.

I'm also waiting until we have a better house with more room just for the fact of when I do get both males and females, I can keep them seperate.

I was thinking that when my dogs got too old to be in the ring, and have reached retirement, I would spay them and find them a good home to live out their life. Of course I'd keep them if I couldn't find them homes. But it's just a thought.

Ah the evil logistics.. I was hoping I could avoid those. Lol.

Liesje

  Good breeders are selfless! *bows*

Agreed! Lol..

I'm looking into breeding the Australian Kelpie. I'm still learning about the lines and everything but I'm hoping (praying) it's not as complicated as the GSD.. Which is why I won't breed the GSD.

oranges81

I'm looking into breeding the Australian Kelpie. I'm still learning about the lines and everything but I'm hoping (praying) it's not as complicated as the GSD.. Which is why I won't breed the GSD.

  Aren't Kelpies a breed which really have to be worked to be proven for breeding like BCs or GSDs? If that is the case, you may be able to strat with a really nice male, prove him as a working dog and get a bitch puppy back at some point from him. There is also a possiblity that you could lease a bitch down the road to breed your boy to and produce your first litter that way. There are certainly ways you can get a boy as the start of your breeding program. Just look for the very best boy you can find and go from there.

AgileGSD

oranges81

I'm looking into breeding the Australian Kelpie. I'm still learning about the lines and everything but I'm hoping (praying) it's not as complicated as the GSD.. Which is why I won't breed the GSD.

  Aren't Kelpies a breed which really have to be worked to be proven for breeding like BCs or GSDs? If that is the case, you may be able to strat with a really nice male, prove him as a working dog and get a bitch puppy back at some point from him. There is also a possiblity that you could lease a bitch down the road to breed your boy to and produce your first litter that way. There are certainly ways you can get a boy as the start of your breeding program. Just look for the very best boy you can find and go from there.

 

Yes they are.  Lucky for me, some people here hold sheep herding trials! Lol.   Now my dumb question of the day, can I do tracking with a Kelpie?  I'm just thinking of the different titles I could place on my boy.

rwbeagles

Lani would know more from the male side. Personally I will always prefer to own and start with, bitches. The males get a lot of the accolades and blame lol...but the bitches are where IMO a lot of your focus needs to be.

Awww shucks, Gina! :o) 

Gina's of course right, starting with a bitch is the better way to go if you want to breed.  She gave me wonderful advice about getting a mature bitch instead of a puppy, so you know what you're starting with, versus waiting for a pup to mature.... and then what  happens if she turns out to be pet quality? This was wonderful advice... and Aryn is a true blessing :)  Thank you again, Gina!! 

Also, as Gina said not all dogs will get along... i'm not keeping a pup until I'm in a house where I can separate with more ease.  I have 5 crates set up in various parts of my house and will be sending Aryn away while in heat... this is NOT easy.  Be prepared, really, really prepared. It's also terribly expensive.  To show a dog, with a pro handler you can spend $1000 in a week without even knowing what happened.  Stud fees, puppy exepnses.... it's really something to behold how fast money just dissapears in this sport!! :)

Personally, I've really enjoyed starting with a foundation stud... I have several friends who have also started this way, so I've had wonderful mentorship.  And to start with getting all the titles you can on your dog is the way to go.  I train in practically everything available for a weim, so he's working on not just AKC titles but breed specific titles (that go through your National breed club)... there are many, many studs out there for use, so make yours as attractive as possible.  I want to prove my dog isn't just pretty, but has a brain, and great temperament... and is driven to work.

As everyone has said, become very knowledgeable in your breed.  I have spent many an hour on infodog/onofrio/baray, etc in show results looking up who's winning, then googling the kennel names, looking at the dogs... figuring out what I do and don't like.  I'm a total pedigree dork... I am getting to the point I can see a dog (from a kennel back East, a dog i've never seen in person) win under a judge and know the type that judge likes... all from researching kennels and studying pictures. This helps me 1. to know if that judge would like my dogs. 2. lets me know my 'eye' has started developing to the finer nuances of structure... cause most people think a weim is a weim is a weim (or in your case a kelpie is a kelpie is a kelpie..... :)  3. do I like those dogs?  If so, would they help my breeding program? They are winning... but, what other titles do those dogs have? Can they work the field, are they well adjusted enough to get their CD, CDX, Agility titles?  Etc.

Read EVERY book available on breeding, raising pups and your breed. Become a true expert.  At the same time, don't become a person who cannot learn, so many people do X amount of research become and "expert" and then stop listening.  There will be amazing people who have been breeding dogs for longer than you've been alive, they are a wealth of information.... listen to them. Which doesn't mean AGREE with them, but stop, have a conversation with them... and listen. I had a several opportunities to talk to some of my breeds "greats" at the Nationals, recently.  I asked many of them the same questions... "which dogs should I be watching for right now?" "Why?"  "If you were buying a puppy, who would you look at?" "Who was a 'great dog' from the past that you wish you could breed to?"  Another note is, don't go around saying "Ohhh... Great #1 said I should look at Bob's dogs...." bad form.  I personally want a reputation of being honest and not a gossip.  There are a lot of gossips at a dog show... try to be above it.

And, lastly, pick 2, max of 3 people you listen to.  EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION!!! And I challenge you to pick everyone's brain, and listen to them.... BUT.  In the end if you have 8 people you are trying to listen to, you will never accomplish anything. I've learned this the hard way.  Ask 5 different breeders the same question, you will most likely get 5 different answers.  So, if you have 2 or 3 close friends (and preferably only 1 mentor) that you can go to for those questions you want to make sure you're doing right... it's the way to go.  Trust these people... but don't be afraid to question them.  If it doesn't feel right in your gut, be OK with saying "No."  It's hard to do... very hard to do.  But, in the end you are the one responsible for bringing those babies into the world.... so, make sure YOU are 100% confident in what you are doing and prepared to pay for the consequences, be them great or awful.

Sera_J

And, lastly, pick 2, max of 3 people you listen to.  EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION!!!

*snort!* how true this is! And make ONE of them at least...YOURSELF lmbo! Seriously...in spite of how everyone around you at times may think it...you (general) are not an idiot! LOL. You have a brain and you love your breed otherwise you wouldn't have cared enough to stay with it.

And realize...5 years is the mean time of people to get "in and out again", it is THAT hard.

I come to a point at LEAST once a year where I am sure this is finally...IT...I am...DONE...this is a stupid colossal waste of money and time and my heart cannot take it...

I'm still here...but only just!

 Thanks Lani! That does help alot.

I haven't been able to make it to a dog show yet. They are few and far between in Vancouver *sigh* but I have been asking questions.  I do have a couple people that I trust but they aren't really breeders. But they can help me put titles on my dogs. So that's something atleast!

 Are there any good websites I can check out to see what all I need to get started? Be it info, materials or what ever?

I think it depends on which angle.  I've heard of some great resources on the breeding and whelping (don't know them offhand since I don't do it), but as far as learning the breed, I think that comes through experience and surrounding yourself with experienced people.  At least as far as GSDs, most of what I read online is hopelessly vague, very subjective with a definite agenda, or just plain not true.

 I love this thread.

I hate the idea of dogs not getting along (because I've lived it, and it wasn't great). "My" breed is a breed that typically gets along. I even know breeders, personally, who won't breed a first time mother as the only bitch bred, "just in case". Their mommies share babies. Seriously, Cresteds are nice pack dogs. They typically play nice, unless somebody's in season. 

*shakes head* I may never have enough... whatever to get into it, but I really hope to breed some nice Cresteds, some day.