Basenjis and Shibas (and similar breeds)

I will tell you this...many Akita breeders that also have Shibas...ONLY have geriatric Shibas. They always laugh and says "Never again". so that right there tells me that even a AKITA person...is worn out and tired of putting up with their Shibas at some point. They love the ones they have...but they won't acquire more.

I think they are very feral in mind and habit...very close to their roots so to speak. Clean, sturdy, many times quarrelsome with other dogs, prone to escape and wander, prey driven, lovely to look at and very aloof with afffection...even to their owners. That is how I would describe a Shiba. Like an Akita in some ways...but more like a Dingo in others. Oh and most I know...are not shy about using their voices...in play or SCREAMING to voice their displeasure. Shiba's can holler with the best of them.

 Why not another corgi? You might be surprised, Kivi might actually enjoy and love being an only.

I thought about another corgi, but I don't think I could do it. I thought about Cardigans for a while. Penny is such an ace dog, but there are things about her that I don't really like. She's very much a one person dog and mopes and sulks when I leave her with someone else. When I come back from field work she has to glue herself to me and viciously defend her position on my foot and when I try to stop her she looks crushed. She is a very soft dog and so desperate to be with me that I don't always realise when I'm being too harsh with her. Kivi is a bit soft, too, but far more resilient than Penny. He bounces back very quickly and forgets all about it.

But when it comes down to it I think I just can't do another corgi for a bit. It just doesn't feel right.

I think I'm just hooked on the wild ones that don't need people. Nothing is more rewarding than having an animal that doesn't think it needs you welcome you into its life. Dogs like Kivi and Penny are so easy to love and live with I almost feel like I'm cheating.

You're right, though. I might be surprised and find that Kivi copes far better on his own than I think he will. He's practically been an only dog since he's come to live with us anyway. Penny doesn't spend much time with him and most of the time she's telling him off. He still adores her anyway. At any rate, he has doggy daycare to take care of his social needs in the short term and it will suffice for as long as it takes to figure out what we'll do next.

Maybe not a Shiba, though... I've met a few and they were very naughty, but you never know just what is achievable with a breed when you've only met a few all from the same place. They were naughty in a good way, but then, I didn't have to live with them!
 

rwbeagles

I think they are very feral in mind and habit...very close to their roots so to speak. Clean, sturdy, many times quarrelsome with other dogs, prone to escape and wander, prey driven, lovely to look at and very aloof with afffection...even to their owners. That is how I would describe a Shiba. Like an Akita in some ways...but more like a Dingo in others. Oh and most I know...are not shy about using their voices...in play or SCREAMING to voice their displeasure. Shiba's can holler with the best of them.

  Wow this could be describing Basenjis as well! Right down to the SCREAMING....

  I have been around a lot of Basenjis and I'm just not sure I can imagine them ever getting to a point of being trustworthy with rabbits. They also really seem to hate being confined and I have known numerous ones who would injure themselves to get out of crates.

 Have you ever considered Schipperke? They are a smaller breed with a lot of attitude and a strong independent streak too.

I actually GET to recommend my breed for once. WOOT.

German Spitz (mittel - which would be my recommendation- or klein.) Spitzy, people-oriented, prey driven but not crazy with it, MUCH more responsive and interested in people than basenjis or shibas, but still definitely their own dog. NOT a one person dog, either, and a whole bunch of fun.  - http://www.freewebs.com/merrifox/ - is one of the people I know who is competing in both breed and obedience with her guys. 

 If you like corgis and lapphunds, you'll like these guys. 

I can't say I'm very fond of Schipperkes. I haven't had much to do with them. Mostly because they start barking at me when I walk by and get the whole Schipperke posse going at shows and they don't stop until I walk away! We have neighbours that don't like barking dogs. I guess this is possibly an issue with the Basenjis and Shibas and another reason why I'd rather an Akita, dammit.

I don't expect any of the dogs I want next to be "trustworthy" with rabbits. We've had Kivi for over 12 months and he's only shared a room with a rabbit with both of them unrestrained for the first time yesterday. He will never be unrestrained with my hare. The rabbit fiercely ignores him and doesn't run, so he is a bit better with her. We did have my mother's wildly prey-driven Vallhund here for a couple of days and we couldn't let him out the door without a leash or he'd go and try to break into the hare's enclosure. We couldn't leave him in the backyard because we thought he'd get out and go back to the hare. He didn't grow up with rabbits, though. I don't know if he would be better if he had. He's very good with the cats and tolerable with the budgie. So in short, I'm not hoping for a dog trustworthy with rabbits. I'm hoping for a dog that, with a bit of work, can walk past the rabbit cage without lunging at it and trying to bust it open. That's all I ask!

I like corgis and lapphunds, but I want something very different. I want something that will actually play frisbee and tug with me for more than 2 minutes. I want something NOT people oriented. I want something that will damn well do what it pleases and if I want it to do something I had better figure out how to make it pleasing. It also has to fit in my small yard and cope with being alone (or with another dog). Kivi is very people oriented and moderately active, but he has fit in pretty well. He almost never spends time in the yard. We take him for a walk every second day and a run every other day and some indoor play and he's happy with that.

My ideal dog is Pyry the Vallhund. He is small, amiable, usually laid back, but crazy smart. He turns into a killing machine when he sees a small animal. He weighs up everything you ask him to do before he decides whether to do it or not. He loves it when someone forages with him, but is happy to just go on his own if no one is interested. The only problem with Pyry is that he's so poorly bred it seems some of the things I love about him are atypical for Vallhunds. Pyry is thoroughly self-possessed and supremely confident, but he's lazy and only acts when he really wants something.  

corvus

 I want something that will actually play frisbee and tug with me for more than 2 minutes. I want something NOT people oriented.   

I am wondering if these are not two contradictory traits. An independent breed like a Shiba or a Basenji is probably not going to play games with you for more than two minutes. Actually, they would probably not even make it that long. They will play chase / prey games for a long time, but frisbee and tug are social games.

I'd say they were. Most Akitas I know could care less about repetitive games with people OR other dogs LOL. Dogs known for fetch do so out of desire to not just chase (Terrier/Sighthound) but RETURN the item (ie people pleasing).

eta: most of the Nordic/Spitz breeds are also prone to barking generalization as that may be. The Primatives like the Akita and Shiba and Basenji you mention are not...which is good...but none are known for the fetch/tug/ thing.

Maybe consider a sighthound. They are independant and do as they please most times.

I was thinking a Schipperke or Vallhund as a smaller dog with energy, drive, and more biddable/values human interaction than the more primative breeds, but it looks like you've already considered both.

samshine

corvus

 I want something that will actually play frisbee and tug with me for more than 2 minutes. I want something NOT people oriented.   

I am wondering if these are not two contradictory traits. An independent breed like a Shiba or a Basenji is probably not going to play games with you for more than two minutes. Actually, they would probably not even make it that long. They will play chase / prey games for a long time, but frisbee and tug are social games.

Aren't tug and chasing prey games? Kivi has no interest in retrieving as a social thing, but he's always brought things back to me because I'll wrestle with him and play some tug and that's something he likes better than chasing. I like the one-on-one interaction of tug. Having said that, I'm so not into ball dogs that just want to play all day. That's probably more contradictory! Is there such thing as a dog that will play frisbee and tug for 10-20 minutes and then want to do something else? When Kivi's been cooped up for a couple of days he'll play for 15 minutes. I like that, but it's not right to have him more drivey than usual through lack of exercise. 

I don't think we have enough room for a sighthound. Maybe a Whippet or Greyhound, but I don't like them so much. 

I think what I want goes in order of:

1. Able to fit in a smallish backyard and cope with a half hour walk or run on weekdays and a longer one on weekends.

2. Little interest in being biddable just to keep you happy.

3. Moderate to high interest in tug.

4. Minimal noise.

5. Okay with hanging out with nothing but a goofy Lapphund for company much of the time.

I like confident, self-possessed dogs that don't think they need you. I especially like them when they are usually calm but get revved if you wave something in their face and say "Getit!" or something. Does a dog like that exist outside of a certain badly bred Vallhund I know?

What are your thoughts on the Alaskan Klee Kai?  I think that the average Klee Kai would fit several of your requirements.

1.  If you have a fenced in yard, the AKK will happily amuse themselves for quite a while.  Kaiser likes to wander around sniffing & peeing on stuff, chase birds that fly overhead and just overall explore the environment.  I can kick him outside on a weekend and he'll spend a good 30 minutes out there by himself before bothering to come to the door.  Luke, on the other hand, wants in after about 5 minutes.  A 45 minute walk will settle Kaiser down nicely -- a 20 minute trip on the rollerblades is even better!

2.  Kaiser pretty much does everything for his own happiness.  When he listens to me, it's generally because he thinks he's getting something out of it.  He's been very easy to train, but there are definitely times when he completely gives me the finger -- such as when the neighbor's obnoxious dog starts a fence fight.  I've had to turn the hose on Kaiser to get his attention back on me, otherwise he just keeps running the fenceline and cannot be coaxed inside.  I'm actually a little frustrated at having a dog so wrapped up in his own world like that.  My other dog listens 99% of the time.  Kaiser has made me find all new ways of making training fun & interesting.  Agility training has been very easy because he thinks it's great fun and self-rewarding -- but if I school the same thing too much, he gets really bored and wanders off on his own.

3.  Kaiser tugs -- when he wants to.  He has a floppy frisbee that he thinks is more fun to tug than to chase.  But he'd rather "win" the game of tug and then take off on a game of keep-away.  That's his favorite game.  He'll play tug with stuffies and ropes in the house, but they are generally rather short-lived games.  He usually ends up dropping the toy and wanting to "chase" my hands as I bounce them around the floor.  He plays like a cat.

4.  My Klee Kai is very quiet, but there are some out there that can be big talkers.  Kaiser doesn't bark much, but he can scream when he gets excited.

5.  Sometimes I think that Kaiser likes Luke more than he likes me....  He definitely likes playing with other dogs.  I have had no problem leaving the two of them at home together.

There are not many people that I would recommend a Klee Kai to, but you sound like someone who would appreciate their quirky tendencies.  Most people WANT a dog who worships and adores them, and a Klee Kai is not for them.  They are very intelligent and very independent.

corvus

Aren't tug and chasing prey games? Kivi has no interest in retrieving as a social thing, but he's always brought things back to me because I'll wrestle with him and play some tug and that's something he likes better than chasing. I like the one-on-one interaction of tug. Having said that, I'm so not into ball dogs that just want to play all day. That's probably more contradictory! Is there such thing as a dog that will play frisbee and tug for 10-20 minutes and then want to do something else? When Kivi's been cooped up for a couple of days he'll play for 15 minutes. I like that, but it's not right to have him more drivey than usual through lack of exercise. 

Both fetch and tug however seem to be easier to find in biddable, want to play silly games with their humans type of dogs.  Kirby has very low prey drive against actual other living animals.  That being said Tug is his favorite game and that is why he fetches.  Within the first day I got him home, if I threw a toy he would naturally grab it and come back to me because he enjoyed the social element of the game.  He also wants to play tug with the toy so he will bring it back and push it toward who is ever showing interest and jump back trying to initiate the game.  He could play tug for hours if someone would play that long, but he will just as easily move to chewing/destroying it if he sees no one is going to play with him.

In my opinion its a lot easier to teach a biddible dog not to be overly pushy about a game when you are finished, than it is to teach an independent, to smart for the silly humans dog, to gain interest in a game they simply find without purpose and boring.

You wrote: "I like corgis and lapphunds, but I want something very different. I want something that will actually play frisbee and tug with me for more than 2 minutes. I want something NOT people oriented. I want something that will damn well do what it pleases and if I want it to do something I had better figure out how to make it pleasing. It also has to fit in my small yard and cope with being alone (or with another dog). Kivi is very people oriented and moderately active, but he has fit in pretty well. He almost never spends time in the yard. We take him for a walk every second day and a run every other day and some indoor play and he's happy with that."

This describes Lizzie almost to a T. :P She's on the high drive end of the GS, but a lot of that is that I really rewarded that from the time I got her. She's trustworthy with rats and bunnies (not mice, though, and chickens are AWFULLY tempting, but she'll call off them).

The only things I don't like about the GS: 

Tiny gene pool (which doesn't affect you- they're a very healthy breed, I just worry about this because I want them to remain this way)
Constantly being mistaken for a Pomeranian
Shrieky Bark- luckily, she doesn't do it much. (She's a 'talker' when she plays, the Shrieky Bark Of Doom only comes out every once in a while when she is REALLY revved- ie, watching SOME OTHER DOG GET TO PLAY ON HER AGILITY COURSE OMG DIE OTHER DOG DIE).

You're in Australia. :P You've got some GREAT GS there. (I'm very partial to the Llancarfan and Merrifox dogs.) Go meet some. They have a lot of the qualities that make the Papillon and Sheltie such nice performance dogs but with a bit more spitziness.

Well that sounds interesting. Maybe I'll look into the GS more. I don't know that my partner would be particularly into them, though. He has a thing against Poms. I like them and they would be one of the rare few toys I'd own, but I think you get to a certain point of fluffyness and they look too much like a toy for him. Ironic, really, as Kivi has a lot of fur! I suggested a Keesie and he wasn't into the idea. I'll look into it, though.

Someone told me Tibetan Spaniels might suit as well. I suggested that one and my partner thought they were too cute. He thinks overly cute dogs are silly. But on the other hand, he just doesn't appreciate my Basenji attraction. Oh well.

No AKK here in Australia. No Canaan Dogs, either. I want a Canaan. Or a Laika. We have Dingoes, but Dingoes need you to be with them all the time. And I don't think I could ever convince one to chase a frisbee. 

It's funny, when I think of the things I want to do with a dog, chasing comes into it but fetch does not. It occurs to me that I said Kivi retrieves, but he doesn't very often. He does if he's in a contact mood because he just wants to come back and push on me and stuff, but if he's in a chasing mood he usually runs after whatever I throw for him and as soon as it stops moving he loses interest in it. I don't really mind that so much. I can get him to keep playing with me if I roll a large ball along the ground or do my own fetching. I just like watching him chase something. I like frisbee because it's a challenge, but I don't care if the dog brings it back or not. Penny's always been a "If you wanted it then why did you throw it away? Get it yourself." kind of dog and I like that, but she'll retrieve when she's in a chasing mood just to get a bit of tug and another chase.  

I don't like play obsessed dogs. I find fetch boring. But I do like chase and tug games. I'd LOVE to have a dog that liked flirt poles. It looks like heaps of fun to me. I haven't tried with Kivi, but I reckon he'd play for a bit and then lose interest like he does in most things.