Anyone know about Merles and deafness/blindness in aussies?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Anyone know about Merles and deafness/blindness in aussies?

    If two aussie merles accidentally mate, is it just the pure whites or the ones with white around the eyes and ears who are at risk, or can the ones with solid coloration be at risk as well?  Mom is a red merle, dad is a blue merle.  2 babies are blue merles, 2 babies are solid livers with white blazes, collars and feet, and 2 were solid whites and the lady is keeping them. We're probably interested in one of the liver colored ones.  The markings are very border collie looking, but just a dark liver color.  Very pretty.  But I want to make sure there's not a big chance that they might be deaf or blind.  I thought I read that it's primarily in the ones with the white.  Since the pups were an accidental litter, and mama is not papered, she's just looking for good homes and some $ towards worming and shots. 

    We're also looking at some mixes in rescue...hubby loves the idea of knowing who the parents were though.

    We decided against the ES puppy we were looking at before.  I cried for 2 days over the idea, but we just couldn't justify spending the money on him...we'd rather make sure we have the money set aside for his veterinary care and lots of chew toys and a new crate and we really wanted to rescue a local pup.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Any aussie can have eye problems. That is one of the problems with the breed. Inspect the eye of the pup you want for any defects in the iris or color around the iris. lethal whites: if there is no pigmant around the eyes, the dog stands a good chance being blind. No pigment around the ears and the dog can be deaf. For whatever reason color - or lack if it is tide to those senses. Google australian shepherd color patterns and you'll find a great website that goes in to a lot of detail about color variations, eye defects, etc.
    • Gold Top Dog

    The thing about pigment (color) and deafness is because the pigment cells in and around the ears are what helps the neural synapses develop which make "hearing" happen (complete the neural network that makes hearing/response to sound happen).  All pups are born both deaf and blind (which is why the eyes are closed at birth) simply because those organs aren't developed after only 2 months gestation.

    A blind pup from a merle/merle mating only results **from** the mating if the eyes completely lack pigment (i.e. that super light blue) but that's not nearly as predictable as the hearing.  But remember you really can't see deeply enough into the ears to know IF there is proper pigmentation to complete the neural pathway to hearing.  It's different with eyes and I don't know enough about blindness that's genetic in that pairing to say.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I did do some reading on that site last night, but I guess I wasn't sure I interpreted it correctly.  If the pup only has some white on his nose, collar and feet, and his ears and eyes have a dark color around them, are the chances of blindness/deafness reduced?  Is there a way to test later?  Right now, it's too soon...they're just a week old.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Don't take this the wrong way please, but I need to ask...

    Is there some reason the BYB avenue is appealing to you? I cannot see supporting anyone that was that irresponsible as to allow 2 dogs to mate that could result in profound defects in their puppies.  Oops indeed. I bet there's another oops from the same person in 8months. Is it a cost issue? Because if you don't pay much in the beginning you might end up paying more down the line?

    I personally think the rescue outlet...a true rescue, not rescuing someone from their bad choices or stupidity is a better option?

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I understand what you're saying. 

    Aren't most dogs in rescues a result of the same thing though?  If she were in it for a profit, wouldn't she be selling them?  Granted, irresponsible...she freely admitted this to me, and was upset that it happened. I have no clue why her male was unaltered, but she did say she wasn't expecting the female to go into heat when she did.

    I am also looking at rescues and have not made a decision yet....my problem with some of these true rescues around here, is that they are asking $150-300 for a mixed breed puppy with 1 set of shots and spay/neuter.  I can get our puppy fixed for $45 through the SPCA, and that includes shots.  Any shots before that, I can get for a lot less...I know rescues do a good thing, I've volunteered with them before. I just think that a lot of them out there right now, are not in it for the right reasons.

    If I find a puppy through a shelter that I think is right for our family, I'll definitely go with them.

    I had questions about the potential health problems of these puppies, which was why I asked!  Not to be judged.

    • Gold Top Dog

    lisa4kids1pup
    I had questions about the potential health problems of these puppies, which was why I asked!  Not to be judged.

    I can understand that...I just wondered...since there've been other questions about other dogs and you seemed unsettled about the idea of getting your pup just a week or so ago...

    It's important to be 100% comfortable with the decision to add on, and many times questions or uneasiness or cold feet as I think you put it, is a sign of that little ticklish sixth sense is actually working and doing it's job Wink.

    Best of luck to you.

     

    • Puppy
    lisa4kids1pup

    I did do some reading on that site last night, but I guess I wasn't sure I interpreted it correctly.  If the pup only has some white on his nose, collar and feet, and his ears and eyes have a dark color around them, are the chances of blindness/deafness reduced?  Is there a way to test later?  Right now, it's too soon...they're just a week old.

    If the dog is more or less "normal" color for an aussie, ie, with color on the head and body with white markings, then the dog only inherited the merle gene from one parent, and is no more likely to be blind or deaf than any other aussie. But, independent of the merle issue, aussies do have some eye problems. At the very least you should have a vet who specializes in canine eye problems examine the eyes. Ideally you would have both parents examined as well. Even this would not be an absolute guarantee against PRA (progressive retinal atrophy), because that can be a problem that doesn't show up until the dogs are 5 or 6 or so. But, if the puppy's eyes were ok, and both parents eyes were ok, then your risks of eye problems shouldn't be terribly high. I'm not sure if there is a genetic marker for PRA in aussies yet or not, but if there is, that would be the safest route to go, but not inexpensive.
    • Gold Top Dog

     If I were in your shoes, I would want the breeder to have CERFed the puppies before they go to new homes as well as a vet check, first shots, and registration papers.

    MxM's can still be registered, so you better get everything you would with any other pure bred dog. If this person is truly trying to clean up the mess she's made, she would do all those things at her expense and place the pups at a minimal cost since this was an unplanned breeding, and has produced a number of dogs who are likely to be deaf and blind.

    If the puppies haven't been CERFed, or she isn't planning to or doesn't know what it is, I would not go near the puppies, because it tells you that this person didn't just have an oops litter. God only knows what other issues are hiding in that gene pool.

    ETA: Also, the solid color means the dog doesn't carry the M gene at all. It is dominant, so you would see it in the coat. (Unless it's only expressed at the tip of the tail and the tail is docked) or only shows up in a small area. Which can happen. A solid dog with a merle spot the size of a dime is actually a merle not a solid.

    • Gold Top Dog

    it's funny because I really did want to get that ES, but the issue with "buying" vs. rescuing came into play, and I felt guilty.  I just didn't feel right spending our money in that way, if that makes sense.  I was having some nervousness because I have gotten so comfortable with having an older trained dog in the house, so the puppy phase sort of freaks me out, but at the same time, I'm excited to get another pup.  I did decide that I DO want to add another dog to the family, absolutely.  Am I nervous?  Yes.  Do I feel like I've found the right match for us?  Not yet.  However, If the ES puppy would show up here at our house, I'd snatch him up in a heartbeat...I'm still VERY upset at having to turn him down.  Honestly, I do want him and I think of him several times a day, occasionally getting all teary eyed.  Justifying the $$$ is the problem.  With four kids, I just have to be very careful how/where I spend my money. I have the money to buy him, I would rather use it on caring for him.

    That said, I'm sort of amazed at people who can just walk into a shelter and choose whatever dog is there and take them home.  I feel like if I'm going to care for this dog for the next 12 years or so, it better be just the right dog for us, and I'd have no second thoughts.  Maybe those people are ones who turn theirs back in so easily.  I would NEVER leave my dog at a shelter...ever.  My dog now is like one of my kids....I hug her and smooch on her, and genuinely feel LOVE for her.  I also knew she was the one as soon as I saw her...call it fate or Karma or whatever.  I'm going to keep looking till I find one, probably always wondering about that ES pup.

    • Gold Top Dog
    To answer your original question, it is normal for aussies to have white feet and some white on their muzzle and such (can see my sig). If there is color around the eyes then the dog is most likely not blind. A blue eye does not mean the dog is blind. You have to look closely right around the eye. It will have an albino whitish pink look around the eye socket. If you search for the leepfrog aussie rescue sight you can see what I mean from the blind dogs that are listed.
    • Gold Top Dog

     Why do you feel guilty about buying a quality dog? Do you feel like breeding is wrong?

     

    If we want predictable coat, size, and personality, we *need* responsible breeders in the dog world. Without selective breeding, there wouldn't be breeds. Most  dogs would be a variation of brown (yellow, red), mid sized, with standing ears. They'd look like the Pariah Dogs, basically. Those are great, but what if you can't have a yellow dog in your rental home? What if you're allergic to that short, double coat? What if your SO really can't take dogs with standing ears, because he was mauled by a Chihuahua as a child? I know those are silly-ish, but.... humans domesticated dogs. They are dogs, because of us. Breeding responsibly to produce healthy dogs that fill our human needs.... is an important part of that. There are good things about rescue, and it's necessary, but you shouldn't feel guilty about spending your money on a healthy dog that suits your needs. I certainly won't. I've spent literally thousands keeping my rescued dogs alive and healthy. It'll be MUCH less expense and heartbreak when I buy a well bred dog, some day.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jennie I get the impression the guilt is more for spending the money on the other ES puppy, considering they have other things going on expense wise right now. In the ES puppy thread she talks a bit about that.

    At least that's what I am gathering and I could be totally off with that too.

    But if that is indeed the case I guess I don't understand settling for what I can afford because of guilt over cost...and not simply waiting til the econmical climate in my home is more conducive to me getting exactly what I want. Sometimes the right dog comes along at the wrong time and you need to let it go and wait...things have a way of working themselves out I have found.

    I do again lisa4kids1pup, wish you luck in your search and really hope you can get the dog you are looking for from a source that is dependable, and there for you later on, should you need support.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You have to remember there are shelters and there are "rescues" and there are "breed rescues".  And they can tend to be WAY different.

    Unfortunately there are a few people out there now who go to animal control and kill shelters to snag placeable dogs before they are euthed who are doing it for money.  There are other people doing it just to save the dogs and their intentions may be sterling.  But unfortunately there are people who are making quite a living out of pretending to be a "shelter" or "rescue" who don't care and who will do anything for quite a hefty adoption fee.  They may even claim to have vetted the dogs and some do -- some don't. 

    I say "unfortunately" because often folks like that are waiting at animal control to snag any purebred dog or anything 'cute' almost before normal people can go in with the intent of trying to rescue a dog from death.

    HOWEVER -- beyond that there is "breed rescue" -- and usually in order to get breed rescue to TAKE a dog from you most of the time you have to be willing to pay quite a big fee (which goes towards getting the dog vetted, etc.) -- it all depends. 

    Breed rescue is usually going to be way way pickier about to whom they adopt dogs out.  A lot of rescues out there are doing a GOOD WORK and try really hard to be resonsible about placements.  I can name TONS of people on this board who try their hardest to make sure dogs are placed well and responsibly.

    But Lisa -- there will always be the jerks out there who don't really care.  They just want the dogs "out" of there or they want the adoption fee.

    What kind of pups are there?  It all depends -- some are simply litters of people who could care less and don't want to pay to have the dog altered (or someone has their dog's sexuality mixed up with their own *sigh* or who thought it would be a "great experience for the kids to see";) -- it could be free and certain people just won't bother to do it.  And usually they're glad to take MONEY for a dog. 

    Breed rescue may handle some "oops" litters -- but usually you're going to know it, and usually they're gonna be darned picky ... particularly in the case of a dog that may be suspected to be deaf, etc.  (simply because there can be liability there if nothing more)

    but in all of the above puppies tend to go fast because puppies are cute.  The ones that break MY Heart are the ones who are 5 - 12 months old -- someone took on a puppy on a whim, and then realized it was WORK.  Or they didn't do any research and suddenly realized that a herder is gonna HERD (and a biting, herding puppy can be a royal p.i.t.a. particularly if it didn't get socialized at all as a puppy and then someone gave it up because it "nips";) or because they realized that they've had the dog for a few weeks and it didn't just magically get housetrained like that book they bought at Wal-Mart promised ... or the couple "broke up" and no one could get another apartment that allowed dogs.

    Lisa -- the reasons are soup to nuts.  People get hold of crass mis-information and think they can sell that merle coat for big money -- but they didn't bother to find out enough before they started to realize that the black one wouldn't bring as much money and the pure white one may be a "lethal white" and just MAYBE they had attack of conscience enough to toss him at a rescue rather than just bash him in the head with a hammer.

    Really?  Yeah -- the whole merle issue is a nightmare in any breed groupd that HAS merles -- because you only get a couple of that "good coat" -- and you'll get one dark one and usually at least one "white" or pup that is likely gonna be deaf.

    A lot of breeders will simply "cull" the white one (yes, kill it).  For some people (no friends of MINE) that's what they consider an acceptable business decision, and for folks like us it's heart-breaking.

    And Lisa honestly -- you'll see much of the full 'gamut' on here -- you'll see good breeders on here (many of whom will question YOU as to why you're looking where you're looking) -- not so much because they're trying to find fault with you, but simply because they tend to be on the dog's side and try and spread the word of how GOOD breeders do it.

    But don't think folks are trying to be mean -- it's just that trying to help you raise questions is a good way to help educate. 

    In fact, with this post I'm not trying to point fingers ANYWHERE. 

    But honestly, in large part YOU can determine how good a "shelter" or a "rescue" is by what sort of questions they ask YOU.  Some are folks out there trying to do a good thing, but often in WAY over their head and they may stretch a point to try to place a dog.  Some folks ARE way, way over their heads because they won't compromise an inch (good folks but on their way to burn-out that way too).

    And then there are the scum trying to make money.  20 years ago they didn't exist -- but unfortunately we're seeing them more and more.  After Katrina we saw a ton of people take dogs from the New Orleans area and take them all the way to Maine to place them -- and a lot of them were sick and heartworm positive and never even saw the sign on a vet's office as they drove by.  *sigh*  People like that make my blood boil.

    Some are found litters (pups found abandoned) and worse.

    • Gold Top Dog

    First, you really can't tell by looking whether a dog has one merle gene (only normal risk for eye/ear problems) or two (high risk, almost certain).  In fact, with a docked breed like Aussies, the merle might be on the tail so you wouldn't know.  I had a rescue puppy over the holidays who was a double merle and you could hardly tell because she's sable and merle doesn't affect the tan on a sable - and she's deaf. 

    Second, if you purchase a puppy from a back yard breeder, you are not rescuing the puppy.  It's a purchase, and is very likely to encourage the breeder to do it again, just as any purchase would.

    If you truly want to rescue, you want to go with a real rescue.  As Callie mentions, there's breed rescue where there's a high rate of fostering.  Foster homes allow the rescuers to really get to know the dogs.  Shelter type situations are a bit of a potluck, but it's still possible and in fact pretty easy to get a nice family dog from one.

    I'm getting a puppy from a responsible breeder.  I'm going to pay a lot of money - but with that I not only get a puppy, whose parents I know and have seen work, and whose work raises certain expectations in me of whether the puppy's working style will fit in here - I'll also buy in to a family that includes the breeder, those who purchase the siblings of my puppy, people who own relatives of the parents, and half siblings of my puppy, and so on and so forth.  There's a whole history that goes back to the pair of friends, one from TN and one from Scotland, who imported my puppy's grandsire - and people I'm also friends with (the one from Scotland has won top honors as International herding champion and multiple times as US champ).

    I'm paying for the breeder's efforts to ensure soundness, both by training the parents to high levels and working them in a wide variety of situations, and also by clinical testing of eyes and hips.  I'm aware of the risks inherent in this cross (there's some elbow weakness in puppies pushed too early), as well as the worst case scenario with regard to temperament (and it's acceptable to me).