Aussiedoodles (here is one for you, Jewlieee!)

spiritdogs

Plus, Poodles are not often used as working dogs any more, so they tend to be owned by those who want a pet,

Since the AKC started accepting standard Poodles in retriever Hunt Tests a few years back, you are starting to see some dogs that hunt.  I don't think it's a huge number but I have seen some really awesome work by Poodles.  I do agree that most people want a Poodle for a pet but I hope that there is a niche for the working Poodle to keep the breed doing what it was originally designed for.  I really, really want a black Standard Poodle to run in Hunt Tests but the pool of available dogs is too small and I don't want to end up with Fifi. LOL 

It could be that in other areas of the country there are more Poodles that hunt but in Texas it's not seen very often. The Marlboro man doesn't take a poodle hunting!

AgileGSD

spiritdogs

Reputable Aussie breeders would probably not consider using good breeding stock to mix with Poodles to make designer dogs due to one simple fact.  The Aussie gene pool is so very small, and good breeding stock, with no history of epilepsy or HD, or iris coloboma, etc. in their lines are very valuable in the Aussie world. 

 I doubt such Aussies exist in anyone's lines. Dogs themselves who are free of such issues certainly do but dogs who are free of genetic issues, have no relatives with genetic issues and are totally "genetically normal" are extremely unlikely in any breed.

Of course you are correct that perfection does not exist, but, for example, my dog came from ancestors who almost exclusively tested as good or excellent with regard to hips, have no history of eye disorders, and no evidence of epilepsy (or the popular excuse for seizures, diabetes).  If I'm that lucky to have found a dog like that, and I hadn't spayed her, would I run right out and find some Poodle to breed her with?  If I really care about improving a breed, perhaps I would reserve her to breed with as clear and structurally sound an Aussie male as I could find.  

Can't wait till they start breeding GSDoodles, then we can talk about whether the American or German versions are better...

Oops - never mind...http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shepadoodle.htm

Believe me, there are PLENTY of poodles and aussies that come into our shelter (purebred, mind you), not to mention all the mixes of this and that.  If someone is looking for something "rare" or "unique" then our shelter would be the perfect place.  We've had plenty of "designer breeds" too.  Right now we have two "miniboz" (boston terrier x mini schnauzer), and are always getting in "cocka-poo's" and various other "poo" mixes.  There is definitely NOT a shortage here.

 I respect those people that "crossbreed" for a purpose (hunting, sport, etc.) and do it right with the parents being tested and such, but these people are just very few and far between.  I just hope these puppies all get loving homes and don't end up in a shelter like several others do. 

spiritdogs

 If I'm that lucky to have found a dog like that, and I hadn't spayed her, would I run right out and find some Poodle to breed her with?  If I really care about improving a breed, perhaps I would reserve her to breed with as clear and structurally sound an Aussie male as I could find.  

Ditto that. I don't know anyone with a nice, or even OK dog that would breed it to anything but a healthy and structurally sound Aussie. To breed these doodle things, you have to be totally irresponsible and not care about any breed.

Especially, in my opinion, where merleing is involved. Given that merle to merle breedings produce dogs with health issues, you'd have to be a total idiot to intentionally breed in those issues (like people breeding merle to merle Aussies for the color.) What happens if this merle doodle breeds to another merle doodle???

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

Ditto that. I don't know anyone with a nice, or even OK dog that would breed it to anything but a healthy and structurally sound Aussie. To breed these doodle things, you have to be totally irresponsible and not care about any breed.

Especially, in my opinion, where merleing is involved. Given that merle to merle breedings produce dogs with health issues, you'd have to be a total idiot to intentionally breed in those issues (like people breeding merle to merle Aussies for the color.) What happens if this merle doodle breeds to another merle doodle???

 

Same thing that happens when you breed any merle dog to another merle dog.

spiritdogs

Of course you are correct that perfection does not exist, but, for example, my dog came from ancestors who almost exclusively tested as good or excellent with regard to hips, have no history of eye disorders, and no evidence of epilepsy (or the popular excuse for seizures, diabetes).  If I'm that lucky to have found a dog like that, and I hadn't spayed her, would I run right out and find some Poodle to breed her with?  If I really care about improving a breed, perhaps I would reserve her to breed with as clear and structurally sound an Aussie male as I could find.  

 I wouldn't say you're lucky to have found such a dog - it isn't uncommon to find breeders who health test if you do research. My piont was that genetics are much more complicated than most people seem to think. Just having a dog from health tested background (and that no one has fessed up to a seizuring relative) doesn't mean that dog is going to produce nothing but good puppies. And just because their background wasn't tested, doesn't mean they will produce unhealthy puppiues. I have known plenty of poorly bred dogs live long, healthy lives with no genetic health issues and plenty of well bred dogs (including a couple of my own) who despite a health tested and research background have or have produced genetic health problems. Some problems are late onset and show up after testing or breeding. Some problems don't have health tests, so it is pretty much just guess work. Other problems only have health tests which tell us what a dog is and not what they will produce. And of course not everyone is forthcoming with information, especially about pet siblings of breeding dogs. In some ways, I can't blame the people who are hesitant to speak up - it seems to be public opinion that if one's dog produces health problems they must be bad breeders with inferior dogs. I simply try to educate people that there are not genetically normal dogs - all have the potential to produce some problems. Through careful breeding a breeder can over many, many generations create a line which is generally consistant and reduce the risk of what issues may show up.

 As for Doodles, of course most are from pet line dogs but certainly not all are. I know of some breeders using dogs from show backgrounds (and I'm not talking a far removed Champion int he pedigree - actual show bred dogs) to make Doodles and some are using working lines as well. Some Doodle breeders are health testing, some have multi-generation Doodles. I'm not saying that Doodles are the best thing ever but certainly some breeders seem to be pretty dedicated.

spirit dogs

 Can't wait till they start breeding GSDoodles, then we can talk about whether the American or German versions are better...

Oops - never mind...http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shepadoodle.htm

 Shepadoodles have been out there for quite a long time now but don't seem to have ever caught on. There are more Doodles out there than you'd imagine really - Boxerdoodles, Doodlemans, Saint Berdoodles.

AgileGSD

Same thing that happens when you breed any merle dog to another merle dog.

Exactly. Agg, people are so irresponsible! 

Merle-Merle bred dogs generly have more issues.

As do White-White bred BC's.

It's really sad when people don't think about that stuff or don't health test they're dogs.

 (For the poodle or Australian Shepherd purist who frowns on hybrids - we are sorry, but we just could not resist seeing what cute babies these are going to be!!)

*VOMIT*

Times like these, I am actually happy for the scarcity and lack of popularity of my (well, Ginny's) breed.....because something like this could happen.....

misstrouble

Merle-Merle bred dogs generly have more issues.

As do White-White bred BC's.

It's really sad when people don't think about that stuff or don't health test they're dogs.

 There are actually specific genetic issues that occur in dogs from merlexmerle breedings that occur in the puppies from the litter which have a double merle gene (sometimes called double dilutes or homozygous merles). Deafness is often an issues, especially if there is a lack of pigment on the ears. Their eyes are often deformed - sometimes way too small, mismatched in size or have unusual pupils (or in some cases, they are born without eyes). The reason people do merlexmerle breedings is to produce more merles, although the double dilutes tend to be a bit different looking with more washed out coloring and/or excessive white. These sites have more info on it:

http://www.ashgi.org/color/white_aussies.htm 

http://www.ashgi.org/color/eyedefects.htm

AgileGSD

spiritdogs

Of course you are correct that perfection does not exist, but, for example, my dog came from ancestors who almost exclusively tested as good or excellent with regard to hips, have no history of eye disorders, and no evidence of epilepsy (or the popular excuse for seizures, diabetes).  If I'm that lucky to have found a dog like that, and I hadn't spayed her, would I run right out and find some Poodle to breed her with?  If I really care about improving a breed, perhaps I would reserve her to breed with as clear and structurally sound an Aussie male as I could find.  

 I wouldn't say you're lucky to have found such a dog - it isn't uncommon to find breeders who health test if you do research. My piont was that genetics are much more complicated than most people seem to think. Just having a dog from health tested background (and that no one has fessed up to a seizuring relative) doesn't mean that dog is going to produce nothing but good puppies. And just because their background wasn't tested, doesn't mean they will produce unhealthy puppiues. I have known plenty of poorly bred dogs live long, healthy lives with no genetic health issues and plenty of well bred dogs (including a couple of my own) who despite a health tested and research background have or have produced genetic health problems. Some problems are late onset and show up after testing or breeding. Some problems don't have health tests, so it is pretty much just guess work. Other problems only have health tests which tell us what a dog is and not what they will produce. And of course not everyone is forthcoming with information, especially about pet siblings of breeding dogs. In some ways, I can't blame the people who are hesitant to speak up - it seems to be public opinion that if one's dog produces health problems they must be bad breeders with inferior dogs. I simply try to educate people that there are not genetically normal dogs - all have the potential to produce some problems. Through careful breeding a breeder can over many, many generations create a line which is generally consistant and reduce the risk of what issues may show up.

 As for Doodles, of course most are from pet line dogs but certainly not all are. I know of some breeders using dogs from show backgrounds (and I'm not talking a far removed Champion int he pedigree - actual show bred dogs) to make Doodles and some are using working lines as well. Some Doodle breeders are health testing, some have multi-generation Doodles. I'm not saying that Doodles are the best thing ever but certainly some breeders seem to be pretty dedicated.

spirit dogs

 Can't wait till they start breeding GSDoodles, then we can talk about whether the American or German versions are better...

Oops - never mind...http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shepadoodle.htm

 Shepadoodles have been out there for quite a long time now but don't seem to have ever caught on. There are more Doodles out there than you'd imagine really - Boxerdoodles, Doodlemans, Saint Berdoodles.

I feel a bit as though you are posting condescension, as if I haven't a clue what goes on in the real world.  You sound as if you are in favor of Aussiedoodles???  If so, I guess we are on a completely different wavelength - I think that it's hard enough for most people to live with a real Aussie, and next to impossible for the people who would buy a Doodle to do so, since they are among the least educated of dog owners (no offense intended, we all start somewhere - just stating my opinion of the level at which these owners currently are).  The comment about Shepadoodles was made completely tongue in cheek.  Doubtless they haven't caught on, because they aren't as "colorful".  (Shakes head and sighs....)

By the way, as to the research, how do you think I did find this dog????  And, I went to great lengths to be sure that she came from people who were honest about epilepsy in the lines. I can't believe you would make such a statement, as if you think I just went cruising around the internet like some newbie.  As to the number of Doodles out there, dontcha think I know that??? They come to my classes all the freakin' time, and it's all I can do to be polite and explain the genetic theory when the parents ask me why their kid sneezes around the hypoallergenic dog:-((

spiritdogs

I feel a bit as though you are posting condescension, as if I haven't a clue what goes on in the real world.  You sound as if you are in favor of Aussiedoodles???  If so, I guess we are on a completely different wavelength - I think that it's hard enough for most people to live with a real Aussie, and next to impossible for the people who would buy a Doodle to do so, since they are among the least educated of dog owners (no offense intended, we all start somewhere - just stating my opinion of the level at which these owners currently are).  The comment about Shepadoodles was made completely tongue in cheek.  Doubtless they haven't caught on, because they aren't as "colorful".  (Shakes head and sighs....)

 No just pointing out that if you can think of breeding it with a Poodle it is has probably been done. Some of the mixing really makes you wonder WTH the people are thinking like a Saint Berdoodle.

 As for if I'm "in favor" of Doodles, I wouldn't say that. But I'm not really against them either, obviously there are a lot of people out there who like and want them. Several of the clients at the grooming shop have multiple Doodles (altered pets). One person has two, she found the breeder of them by researching, talking to different people and asking about health checks and the parent's backgrounds. There are extremely uneducated, bad dog owners who impluse buy purebreds as much as impluse buyers of "designer dogs". There are also extremely good, dedicated owners who have "designer dogs" or petstore puppies.

spirit dogs

By the way, as to the research, how do you think I did find this dog????  And, I went to great lengths to be sure that she came from people who were honest about epilepsy in the lines. I can't believe you would make such a statement, as if you think I just went cruising around the internet like some newbie. 

 I certainly didn't imply you just bought any puppy off the internet. What I replied to was the idea that anyone could purchase a dog that has no relatives who have any health problems. The idea that there are breeders out there who never produce any sort of problem is not accurate and is harmful to all breeders. Breeders often aren't truthful about health issues because they are afraid of being attacked for breeding "bad dogs". The reason they would be attacked for producing health issues? Because people think that "good breeders" with "good dogs" never produce such things.

AgileGSD

 There are actually specific genetic issues that occur in dogs from merlexmerle breedings that occur in the puppies from the litter which have a double merle gene (sometimes called double dilutes or homozygous merles). Deafness is often an issues, especially if there is a lack of pigment on the ears. Their eyes are often deformed - sometimes way too small, mismatched in size or have unusual pupils (or in some cases, they are born without eyes). The reason people do merlexmerle breedings is to produce more merles, although the double dilutes tend to be a bit different looking with more washed out coloring and/or excessive white. These sites have more info on it:

http://www.ashgi.org/color/white_aussies.htm 

http://www.ashgi.org/color/eyedefects.htm

When I was looking for a good BC breeder I saw several Lilac, Blue, Gold, and Tri's with those colors. I had never seen them before. Is that why? They were a Merle-Merle or White-White breeding?

misstrouble

When I was looking for a good BC breeder I saw several Lilac, Blue, Gold, and Tri's with those colors. I had never seen them before. Is that why? They were a Merle-Merle or White-White breeding?

 No the gene that causes Blues and Lilacs is a different type of dilute gene than the one which causes merles. It can be argued that any dilution gene is bad, as it does seem to affect the way the immune system functions but there are not specific issues breeding those dilutes to each other the way there is with merles. This site talks about dilutes in Aussies but the info would apply to BCs as well:

http://www.ashgi.org/color/dilute_aussies.htm 

AgileGSD

spiritdogs

I feel a bit as though you are posting condescension, as if I haven't a clue what goes on in the real world.  You sound as if you are in favor of Aussiedoodles???  If so, I guess we are on a completely different wavelength - I think that it's hard enough for most people to live with a real Aussie, and next to impossible for the people who would buy a Doodle to do so, since they are among the least educated of dog owners (no offense intended, we all start somewhere - just stating my opinion of the level at which these owners currently are).  The comment about Shepadoodles was made completely tongue in cheek.  Doubtless they haven't caught on, because they aren't as "colorful".  (Shakes head and sighs....)

 No just pointing out that if you can think of breeding it with a Poodle it is has probably been done. Some of the mixing really makes you wonder WTH the people are thinking like a Saint Berdoodle.

 As for if I'm "in favor" of Doodles, I wouldn't say that. But I'm not really against them either, obviously there are a lot of people out there who like and want them. Several of the clients at the grooming shop have multiple Doodles (altered pets). One person has two, she found the breeder of them by researching, talking to different people and asking about health checks and the parent's backgrounds. There are extremely uneducated, bad dog owners who impluse buy purebreds as much as impluse buyers of "designer dogs". There are also extremely good, dedicated owners who have "designer dogs" or petstore puppies.

spirit dogs

By the way, as to the research, how do you think I did find this dog????  And, I went to great lengths to be sure that she came from people who were honest about epilepsy in the lines. I can't believe you would make such a statement, as if you think I just went cruising around the internet like some newbie. 

 I certainly didn't imply you just bought any puppy off the internet. What I replied to was the idea that anyone could purchase a dog that has no relatives who have any health problems. The idea that there are breeders out there who never produce any sort of problem is not accurate and is harmful to all breeders. Breeders often aren't truthful about health issues because they are afraid of being attacked for breeding "bad dogs". The reason they would be attacked for producing health issues? Because people think that "good breeders" with "good dogs" never produce such things.

I never said that none of my dog's relatives had any problems whatsoever, but I went through the five generation pedigree and checked all the listed dogs' OFA and CERF.  No problems.  So, if there are problems in the lines somewhere, they were not readily apparent upon testing of those dogs, that's all.  I don't know where you got the idea that I think there are breeders who never produce a problem.  But, I certainly appreciate an honest breeder, which is what I got, thanks to the help of some good contacts and some heavy duty research.  

I also know that there are some very dedicated dog owners who happen to own Doodles or pet store dogs, but IMO they are only really really good owners once they acknowledge that the practices that resulted in those dogs being bred are not necessarily in the best interest of those dogs or dogs in general.  I don't deny that they love the dogs they own, and take good care of them, but I can't condone a system that keeps dogs living in misery, a la puppy mills, or that breeds indiscriminately for color or coat texture, for example, without regard for such things as temperament or structural soundness, which happens all too frequently in the Doodle world.