High drive dogs

CoBuHe

oranges81

She is wanting me to get a "harder" dog.

What exactly was she referring to when she suggested a "harder" dog.  To me that means a dog that takes corrections well.  A hard tempered dog can be corrected and come back just fine.  A soft tempered dog has a rougher time with corrections and may show fear or hit the ground or go belly up.

That's what she means. Maze is really soft when it comes to corrections and it takes some encouraging to get her back up and ready to go if I just say "No"

I plan on doing Agility, Rally O and what ever else I can get my hands on when I get my pup. I'm still leaning HEAVILY on the GSD but she asked me to do research so I am.

For agility and rally i wouldn't necessarily suggest an over the top high drive dog, i think they're more geared towards shutzhund and the like. I realize it sounds appealing, but a high drive dog is a lot of hard work...Kaiser has a lot of drive and has been a huge challenge for me.GSDs are great (certain lines might be a better choice), or maybe a show line dobe would also be a good option, and BCs and aussies are amazing at agility. I wouldn't quite recommend a mal i don't think.

 Ah, I see. You mean hard vs soft with training.  I don't know if you really want to get what amounts to a difficult dog to train but you want one that will not break down when you raise your voice. You will find soft dogs in just about every breed. It will really take getting to know the litter you are picking from to find the right pup.

Aussies tend to be soft dogs. A shaker can will send all 3 of my aussies running for cover instantly. Even a raised voice sends them to another room. They are pretty sensitive. I prefer this over my husky though, who has been very hard to train her entire life.

ACD's are independent thinkers and in your face. An ACD charges through life head on so you have to stay one step ahead of them and redirect their energy in to what you want it to be. I do not see a lot of ACD's at our training facilities for rally or agility. I consider them less tame - or less wanting to please you - than other herding breeds. ACDs are used a lot in frisbee though - they seem to have natural springs in their feet and can jump super high! I love ACD's but I would never own one. I see them as a mix of aussie energy, intelligence but with the indepedence of a husky. No more independent dogs for me. They are way too frustrating!

I don't know much about GSD's other than I see them a lot in formal obedience, rally and such. 

Mal's - they seem very reactive to me. I wouldn't want a reactive dog personally, but that's up to you.

 I like the look of a Mal but their not the dog for me. I don't think I'd be able to handle one without Schutzhund and there's no clubs here that offer it.

I'm thinking I'll get my shepherd and then maybe a Dobie or Rotti for my next pup after the shepherd is at a good age. 

RidgebackGermansShep

For agility and rally i wouldn't necessarily suggest an over the top high drive dog, i think they're more geared towards shutzhund and the like. I realize it sounds appealing, but a high drive dog is a lot of hard wor

I agree with this completely.  Heidi comes from german show lines; her drive is crazy high and she is as hard as they come.  Her sire is a SchH champ and she would have been a dynamo, I just know it.  What the hec was I thinking (I had no interest in sport)??  She is quite the challenge for me and is non-stop.  Luckily she has grown into her "off" switch now that she is almost 2 years old.  But, wow for a while there I thought she was just too much dog for me. 

Not all GSDs are this way for sure...I had 3 males prior to her and they were all very mellow.  One in fact, was very soft.n  If you do go the GSD route...consider an AmBred.

 The breeder I've been speaking to does German Showlines I think. I'm pretty sure. I'm still learning the lines.

But there's a shepherd in my agility class that apparently came from the Bullinger Kennels and he's in rough shape. The family got the dog for free from a couple in Vancouver who broke his spirit. But he has a hump, and his hips are going. I don't know if I believe that he came from that breeder since I've been in contact with her for a while now but it's still sad to see.

If you want a GSD I'd stick to German or working lines.  Doing well with agility does reqiure a LOT of drive from the dog.  A drivey dog is so much easier to motivate, easier to try different types of crosses, get the dog charging off the obstacles, etc.  A dog bred selectively for various types of working drive is also going to take handler mistakes a lot better.  When I was looking at working lines for SchH several very experiences breeders told me that I should not shy away from a working bred dog because I was worried about over the top drive.  A good breeder knows their dogs and their puppies and if they suspected a dog had too much drive, they would not match that dog with a novice handler.  A good working GSD has a clear on/off switch and should not be out-of-control drive and "up" ALL the time.  If it is, that can be poor temperament too and can be a sign of a dog that is actually too reactive, not a dog that has appropriate drive.  That's one of the great things about the GSD, you can turn them on and turn them off.  A working line dog bred selectively for drive to excel in sport and work with not be as affected by handler mistakes and training difficulties from a "green" handler as an overly reactive dog like a Mal or a dog lacking in drive like an Am bred GSD.

The west German show lines may have SchHIII titles but there is a HUGE difference between a dog having that title and a dog being a really "drivey" dog.  This past weekend I had the pleasure of watching both the male and female working dog classes at the North American Sieger Show perform their bitework/courage test.  Even for a novice like me it is very clear which dogs I would actually call drivey and which basically play SchH like a game (nothing wrong with that, but there is a difference).  Most of the males all do have SchHIII titles and other sorts of titles but 99% of them are not what I would describe as particularly drivey dogs.  Energetic, biddable, and courageous.....yes, but civil, defence, and prey drives are a different story.  Nikon is west German show lines and Kirschental lines.  I have seen his mother do bitework and she is a very intense, aggressive dog and comes from lines of German dogs that would be classified as show but are known for possessing a greater level of working drive (from one of the dogs Bullinger uses/has used).  His father is pure German show lines and while he is SchHIII titled and the mother is SchHI titled I do not expect a very drivey dog, though I would be pleased to have one.

As far as hardness, I think a GSD is going to be more hard than a Mal but it really depends on the dog and the lines.  Kenya is very soft and might cower at certain verbal corrections.  Now I know someone experienced in training and working GSDs who has a dog that is so up and so hard that extreme physical corrections might not even be enough to shake him.  There are advantages to having a hard and a soft dog.  I was worried about Kenya doing SchH and so far every single person has told me there's no reason NOT to do SchH just because the dog is handler soft.  I had an experience police K9 trainer/handler look at her and another couple who trains for high levels of ringsport and sets up simulations for police K9 and all just shrugged and said she is a great dog for SchH as long as we work the right way.  Some things are harder for us and some things are easier.

If you do start to think in the lines of a smaller dog for ease of.... everything, do consider a P/JRT. Emma is a fairly hard dog, but not a high drive dog. That is a direct result of breeding for pet quality dogs, though. A proper temperament on them is a hard, drivey dog, and a very, very stable dog. They are hard working, and will channel the drive into whatever you teach them to do.

They are also extremely portable, don't eat a lot, don't drool, and don't shed much compared to most of the breeds mentioned. They are said to be bad around cats, but that has not been my experience. Emma *will* kill small animals, so that's something to take into consideration, but Colleen's dogs live in harmony with house rabbits, so.... that's an individual thing, too.

I enjoyed reading this thread and seeing some different opinions on some of the working/herding lines.. also great advice!

I agree with those that said every breed has dogs with various temperaments and personalities, so you'll want to make sure you are clear about what you are looking for when speaking with the breeder.  I'd recommend a breeder that has dogs that are out working in the performance rings, they will know what traits to look for in their pups to place the best pup with you.

I also want to add that there are a ton of breeds that may also suit your needs.  Some of the sporting dogs may also work, since you aren't looking for a sharp breed (per se) but just a driven one.  I know tons of very driven weims, goldens, vizslas and the like.  Logan's moderately driven, he likes to work, but isn't as drivey and a bit softer than I want my next dog to be (tho he's a great starter for performance work).  Some of my weim friends have some extremely driven weims, to the point of exhaustion for the owner.  Be prepared what you are asking for.... as some of the others pointed out, it's a LOT of work to keep a truly driven dog.

Awesome answers guys... looking forward to hearing more!

 The owner of the training club has a JRT who I've fallen in love with! Lol. I never thought I'd like P/JRT's but now I do.

I have been in talks with the breeder in lots of length and she knows all my plans with the new dog. I would love to own a Vizsla's but I'm not sure I'd be able to find a breeder that's close to me.

In BC?  I'm sure there are great breeders up there, or even just accross the border in NW Washington.  Logan comes from a breeder in BC, Canada :)  They are exceptional.

 Really?! Sweet!! I think I'll go hunting on the net tomorrow.

Jewlieee

ACD's are independent thinkers and in your face. An ACD charges through life head on so you have to stay one step ahead of them and redirect their energy in to what you want it to be. I do not see a lot of ACD's at our training facilities for rally or agility. I consider them less tame - or less wanting to please you - than other herding breeds. ACDs are used a lot in frisbee though - they seem to have natural springs in their feet and can jump super high! I love ACD's but I would never own one. I see them as a mix of aussie energy, intelligence but with the indepedence of a husky. No more independent dogs for me. They are way too frustrating!

Nah, ACDs aren't really that independent. You'll never find a more loyal dog than an ACD. Once you bond they will do anything at all for you. They are quick to take matters into their own hands if they see danger, but I would totally trust them to let it go instantly and come back to your side at a word. They are a drover's dog, bred to take on practically wild cattle. They are extremely gutsy, and it's true that they can be energetic and problematic if bored, but I see these guys as backyard family pets all the time. They are fantastic. However if you screw up with them, you can have a biter on your hands. They need your direction or they'll sometimes invent problems to attack if they don't get it. They do have a reputation for being nippy, much like Collies do.

Kelpies are a different kettle of fish. They don't do quite so well in the suburbs as they really do need more exercise and things to do. They have a very sweet temperament and are not known for being a bit dangerous like ACDs are. They really have to run a lot every day to be happy, but they are usually superb off leash so it's easy to exercise them. They are extremely agile! Get a small one and keep it lean and it will blitz everyone in agility. They do get bored more easily than ACDs. Just need to run. They are total workaholics, though, and as long as you keep telling them what to do they'll keep doing it and couldn't be happier. Working Kelpies are a sight to behold. There's nothing quite like a working Kelpie. They are so switched on and so keen to do their thing.
 

 Are there any good links on the Kelpie? I'm really interested in them now but I know little about them.  Any dog I get next will defentily be a sports dog so they'll have a job to do no matter what.

oranges81

 The breeder I've been speaking to does German Showlines I think. I'm pretty sure. I'm still learning the lines.

But there's a shepherd in my agility class that apparently came from the Bullinger Kennels and he's in rough shape. The family got the dog for free from a couple in Vancouver who broke his spirit. But he has a hump, and his hips are going. I don't know if I believe that he came from that breeder since I've been in contact with her for a while now but it's still sad to see.

 I suspect the "hump" you speak of is what dog people call a roach back and it is extremely common in German showlines. Not all are extreme but most have some rise in the topline. Luckily it is a fault that can easily be seen, even with puppies and you could select against one with a severe roach back.

 As for the hips, ALL GSD breeders will produce some dogs with bad hips. It is a widespread problem in the breed and one that can not entirely be controlled even with the most selective breeding. If a GSD breeder tells you they have never, ever produced a dog with HD or that their line doesn't get HD and they have been breeding for more than just a couple litters - look elsewhere because they either aren't being honest or just don't know. There are similar problems in all breed - with Belgians it's epilepsy.

  For what you want in a dog you have multiple options, depending on what you like. I disagree that high drive isn't needed for agility - the top agility dogs are all very intense and driven. The only good agility GSDs I have ever seen are dogs who are intense and driven, many GSDs are actually not well suited for agility due to size and drive (or lack of it). Ideally you want to look for a more compact, medium sized dog for agility with at least decent food and prey drive.

 I actually think the Belgians would suit what you want to do but wouldn't suggest a sport/work bred Mal for the situation.  There are some show/performance bred Mals that sound like they'd be great for what you want though. This one comes to mind for sure, they have produced a lot of dogs who do well in performance venues and I have liked the ones I have seen personally:

http://www.carouselmalinois.com/

 And of course there are other Belgian breeds - Groenendael or Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Tervuren and Belgian Laekenois (Laekens are pretty rare). http://belgians.com/ Unlike GSDs, many show Belgian breeders do breed for a well rounded, functional dog that can "do stuff".

 Working bred Aussies would be another to look into - they can be very nice working dogs and don't tend to be hard headed.

 Rotties and even ACDs tend to be more hard headed - they can make nice working dogs but it often takes more work than the more biddable breeds. Most Rotties IME are not all that high drive - they actually tend to be a more difficult to motivate breed. Not sure if the German bred ones are different though.

 With Dobes, I'd suggest looking into the working bred ones. IMO and IME most of the show bred ones don't have real "working" type temperaments.

 Some of the sporting breeds may be suitable for you as well. Weims and GSPs can be drivey and intense if you research your breeders well but also should not be too soft. The same is true for some lines of Goldens and Labs.

  And the Bully breeds (APBTs, AmStaffs, Staffies) can be really nice performance dogs too. They don't tend to be soft, are driven, active, althletic and like to "do stuff". There is a strong chance of dog aggression to some degree with them though, in some I have known it is enough to prevent them from doing some sports.

  It really comes down to what you enjoy living with, as many breeds can excel at what you want to do. Sporting breeds don't tend to be my kind of dog, even though some are very drivey and I enjoy seeing them work. Rotties are far too independent and pushy for me. A good GSD really is hard to beat for an all around nice dog - very biddable, very devoted, bold, confident and "on demand" drive. But they do shed like crazy! If shedding bothers you, do not get a GSD. GSDs with a proper temperament tend to be serious guard dogs at home and in the car and quite aloof towards people they don't know - not everyone wants a dog like that. And there is a very strong tendency towards same sex aggression in the breed, which doesn't tend to show up until maturity and could leave you having to play rotatodog for the next 10 years. The Belgians are a lot of fun - they are a bit sillier than GSDs. Like GSDs, they also tend to be very devoted and very biddable (although almost no dog is more devoted than a devoted GSD LOL). But they are quirky, strange dogs with a strong tendency towards obsession and some can be rather needy - not everyone likes that in a dog. Neither my Belgians or GSDs need very harsh corrections but they also don't fall apart with fair corrections either.

 You can find soft, overly senstive or overly reactive dogs in any breed. It is important to research lines and breeders and talk with others who have the breed. Even the best breeders sometimes produce dogs with less than ideal temperaments or health problems. You want to get a feel for if the breeder does well matching dogs with owners and knows what they are looking for with soundness and drive (sad to say, some really don't know :( ). Don't confuse hyperactivity with drive - a dog can be drivey without being hyper and a never sits still dog might not have much useful drive at all.