What do you guys think about this breeder...?

I know very little about this breed, but if SchH is the main goal my gut would be to find breeders that focus on that in their program.  There's nothing wrong with show bred dogs, but it looks like this breeder is breeding selectively for conformation, not drive, and drive is something that is either there or not.  There are different ways to maximize the drive and it's not always easy to bring it out, but if it's not there, it's not there.  That's not to say the show bred dog can't have the right drive, but I think chances are better with a program that is breeding with drive in mind.

Other than that, the breeder looks legit, beautiful dogs!
 

I had the same dilemma myself with GSDs, I wanted this and that and had to compromise as best I could so we'll see how it turns out... 

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking...  : /  I really like this breed because (at least for a few years) I think I could title a dog in both conformation and performance work.  I'd love to have a Doberman, but I know that there's no way I could title a dog in the conformation ring and in schutzhund.  It would be virtually impossible. 

I also thought that I may just e-mail her and ask if any of her pups were ever titled in schutzhund or did any other type of protection work (I know Beauceron are fairly popular in French Ring), or maybe even just go and see if she'd let me evaluate some of her dogs.  That might be trying to take it too far, I suppose, but if I'm willing to pay $1000-2000 for a dog I want to be able to reach my goals (or at least have a good chance of it).  ;)

 $1000 for a conformation dog? Really? Maybe *I* need to look more into Beaucerons! LOL 

Nah, too much hair.... 

Seriously, most of the breeds I'm interested in start around $500 for a pet from a good show breeder. Are other breeds dramatically less?

jennie_c_d

 $1000 for a conformation dog? Really? Maybe *I* need to look more into Beaucerons! LOL 

Nah, too much hair.... 

 

Seriously, most of the breeds I'm interested in start around $500 for a pet from a good show breeder. Are other breeds dramatically less?

German show line GSDs (bred for SchH and SV style conformation) will start at around $2000 and the sky's the limit (depends on titles).  Not sure about American lines.  Working lines you can get a great dog for less than $1500.  I'm sure this is the case for any breed, but it seems if you have a good relationship with a breeder or have a certain purpose for the dog the prices will come down (I've seen working line breeders give "discounts" and priority to SchH homes and the breeder I've selected for my next pup is giving me a "deal";).

That's just the usual range I've seen.  ;)  Of course, depending on the pup, I'd be willing to pay a little more, but I'd say $3,000 is going to be my limit. 

You know, if Ring or Sch were your goals, I'd go around to competitions (if you don't already) and start taking notes.  Working, as you know, isn't just about "insert titled parents" and get a dog that will work for you.  If you can see some Beaux work you should start getting an idea of the style of dog you like and think you will get along with.  It's possible your conformation breeder actually will be the one who has the lines you like best.  It's more likely in this breed that is much closer to its working roots (I'd never recommend such a thing to someone looking to get into BCs for herding because the show lines are downright useless).

A good BC from top working/competitive lines will run around $800 nowadays. I looked at a litter from a female (feels weird and prissy to type "female" because the correct term will get starred out!) who was the daughter of a World Champion, bred by an ABCA Hall of Fame breeder, and he was asking $1500 for the pups.  Ted was less than the price I named above and he's going to be just fine.  There gets to be a point in working lines where you are paying more for big names and get diminishing returns on what a pup can get you (please note though, I'd buy a trained dog from the above trainer/breeder for any amount because it would be worth it!)

I didn't need the super priced puppy versus Ted who was just as solidly bred.  I even looked at a litter that cost half what Ted did (and almost a third the cost of the above), and one of them is currently running in and winning trials at the beginning levels.

 Those dogs look like Rottweiler/doberman mix I like them

Liesje

breeding selectively for conformation, not drive, and drive is something that is either there or not.  There are different ways to maximize the drive and it's not always easy to bring it out, but if it's not there, it's not there

Not to get off topic or anything, but what exactly is "drive"?   Is it prey drive or work drive?  What do they mean when they say that the dog is drivy? or does it depend on the breed on what kind of drive they have? 

Is it possible to tell early on if the pup is going to have drive or not?

Drive is what you look for in a working dog.  I suppose it would be different types of drive, depending on what you were wanting the dog to do.  In schutzhund dogs, you want a very "ball-driven" dog.  This is hard for me to explain, but I'm sure someone else will come along and do a better job.  ;)  In schutzhund you have general either prey drive or defense drive.  Prey drive is, of course, the dog wanting to go after the sleeve as a toy or prey object.  Defense drive is the dog wanting to guard the sleeve (in the beginning), then guard the handler.  Dogs that are more defense driven are what they call "sharp."  They're the kinds of dogs you need in the real world.  For competition purposes, more prey driven dogs are perfect. 

And yes, you can tell in young puppies.  I know there was a video clip somewhere of someone doing this, so I'll see if I can find it.  It was pretty interesting! 

 I agree that this breeder seems focused on comformation. I'd suggest asking on some of the SchH geared dog forums (GSDpedigree database or even Leerburg) about the breed and suggestions for breeders.

  As for price Belgians tend to range from $600 - 1200 for a puppy, depending on the breeding and quality. You can certainly still buy a show potential puppy for under $1000. The more popular, competive conformation breeds tend to be a lot more from show breeders (GSDs, Dobes, Goldens, etc).

nataliem

Liesje

breeding selectively for conformation, not drive, and drive is something that is either there or not.  There are different ways to maximize the drive and it's not always easy to bring it out, but if it's not there, it's not there

 

Not to get off topic or anything, but what exactly is "drive"?   Is it prey drive or work drive?  What do they mean when they say that the dog is drivy? or does it depend on the breed on what kind of drive they have? 

Is it possible to tell early on if the pup is going to have drive or not?

There are different kinds of drive (prey drive, defense drive, rank drive, pack drive, etc) but for a SchH dog usually drive is referring to prey drive and defense drive.  A dog lacking drive is hard to motivate and keep focused.  SchH training is typically built on motivating and rewarding the dog with games like fetching a ball or tug-of-war.  It is extremely difficult to get very far with a dog that has no motivation to tug or fetch, or is too weak nerved to defend.  An example of prey drive is where the helper runs and the dog chases him down, and defense drive is where the dog is threatened and must turn on/off a display of aggression.

http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/Elements%20of%20Temperament.htm#2.%20Drives

Yes, it is possible to assess drive pretty early.  It's not an exact thing, and certain dogs need more work to bring out their drive, but if you are looking for a good working dog, you want a dog that displays drive very early on.  You would also know by the breeding what levels of drive to expect.  In Germany Shepherds, you would not purchase an American line dog if you were looking for strong drives for Schutzhund.

In 2007 I went to an SDA demo at the UKC Premier and they introduced this 8 week old Dutch Shepherd puppy.  They demonstrated drive using a flirt pole and having her tug on a rag.  Then this big guy lifted the rag up and the puppy clung to the rag, dangling off the ground.  Then, he shouted at the puppy and threatened to beat her with a stick.  Still, she clung to the rag without blinking.  This past summer, I went to see this dog again, now being trained and titled with protection and police titles.

I LOVE Dutchies...and I also wish I was talented in working two different leashes....Alas, I sucketh... 

Workingdoglover

I LOVE Dutchies...and I also wish I was talented in working two different leashes....Alas, I sucketh... 

 I like Dutch Shepherds too - very neat dogs. I found out recently they come in long and wire coats - they long haired ones are really neat looking and the wire haired ones are...well wirey! (Nothing against wirey dogs - my next dog will likely be a Laekenois)

I've only seen one Dutchie of the wirehaired variety, and I must say he didn't look much like a Dutch shepherd..lol! 

 I really love the Laekenois, too, though.  I guess I just like the "different" dogs (anything besides the normal GSD, though I have nothing against them).  It seems like the Dutch shepherds are very similar to the Belgians...only in brindle.  Same variation of hair types and really similar builds.