A Picture Timeline - dumdog

Whoa.

Aside from the obvious differences in the head and body type, what happened to the legs?  Good grief, can bulldogs bend at the knees at all?

I just read the Wiki article on the "Bulldog" - this is a fantastic example of the "just-so" story - history re-written to justify breeding what are, after all, just traits of aesthetic value only - "fads":

In the 1600s, bulldogs were used for bullbaiting (as well as bearbaiting), a wagering sport popular in the 17th century in which trained bulldogs leapt at a bull lashed to a post, latched onto its snout and attempted to suffocate it.^[2] Bulldogs have many distinct characteristics that were breed into them so they would be better suited to bullbaiting. The bulldog's body is short and stout, allowing it to be able to crawl low over to the bull. The lower jaw sticks out further than the top one allowing the bulldog to grip on the nose of the animal and still be able to breathe due to the lay-back of the nose. The wrinkles on the bulldogs face allow the blood from the other animal to run down the bulldogs face instead of going into its eyes.

This is all so horribly bad there's no place to begin.  A dog can't suffocate a bull, no matter how tenacious it is or undershot its jaw.  Ever seen how big a bull's mouth is?  Cattle can mouth breathe - helloooooo.  I have no idea what they mean by "crawl low over to the bull" - my friends whose dogs work cattle tend to use taller dogs that can reach high for a head bite.  Again, if the object is getting to the nose of the bull, why are we talking about being low?  These have to be people who haven't been around many bulls.

Since I started working with livestock dogs, I've grown dubious about the whole idea of a bulldog latching on the nose of a bull, in fact.  Most livestock dogs are bred to bite hard and release - a "dirty gripper" is eventually an injured or dead gripper in my experience.  Pigs, now, you latch on and hold for dear life, or you are a dead pork herder.  Pig dogs are usually herding breeds crossed with bully breeds (APBTs, usually).

Bull baiting certainly was a "sport", something of a "my dog is tougher than your dog" thing - bear baiting was done, too.  I don't think it was quite as described above, though.  It wasn't exactly a gentleman's sport, though "gentlemen" went and watched and bet.  In the literature and history I read, it was in a line with boxing and horse trading - something shifty types were directly involved in, and got fast young men of the upper classes involved in, while their parents wrung their hands and bailed out their debts.

brookcove

Whoa.

Aside from the obvious differences in the head and body type, what happened to the legs?  Good grief, can bulldogs bend at the knees at all?

I just read the Wiki article on the "Bulldog" - this is a fantastic example of the "just-so" story - history re-written to justify breeding what are, after all, just traits of aesthetic value only - "fads":

 And worst of all - even if you can believe the whys of this Bulldog "history", if you've ever been around modern Bulldogs it is obvious they would be totally unsuited for this sort of thing. To start with they can't move very fast, they are not agile and they have breathing problems when they get too hot or exercise. One can claim what they would like about the modern form and the breed's original function but looking at pictures/painting of the dogs who actually DID the job, modern Bulldogs don't even look like the same breed. It is always safe to assume the dogs actually doing the work are the ones who have the proper structure for the job.

Really, most of the literature I've seen (primary sources, not someone's opinion of what the dogs did or conclusions drawn from art), talks about bulldogs being guardians of homesteads and shops (alert, not protection dogs), and even earlier, references to the dogs as the assistants of butchers, moving stock from yards to killing areas (hence the origin of the "my bulldog is tougher on bulls than your bulldog" game). 

For all of these functions, today's bulldog is sadly unsuited.  And the excuse that "we don't bait bulls today" is just a lame one.  The above functions are noble ones that still have value today. 

if i wasnt so busy right now i would go change the wiki BS.....

i highly recommend Dave Putnam's book "Working American Bulldogs" for a fairly decent report on the origin, history and future of ALL bulldogs. not just Americans...  

i think the "crawl low over to the bull" is somehow akin to a border collie stalking.... which  is slow and calculated. ever see a REAL bulldog work? aint nothin slow about!!! notice in those pictures those "working" dogs are being held back on their two hind legs. do you have to hold your collies back like that before sending them after the sheep or cattle?

i'd like to see people change the AKC bulldog's name to something more appropriate like.... Giant Pug... u know.. like Giant Schnauzer... or Standard Poodle. Or maybe change the name to Miniature or Toy Bulldog. because its obvious, like any child's toy, it represents something in real life but is fairly harmless.... like match box cars, and water pistols. they LOOK like the real thing but are obviously NOT. 

     ::shudder::  Seeing it like that is very, very interesting, but I've always viewed the show bred Bulldogs as an abomination. The breeders all spout the same rhetoric about that phisyque being conducive to work. HOW? When these dogs can't even breathe naturally and are so heavy, weighed down with their own bone structure they are riddled with dysplaysia or the "sturdier" ones waddle rather than walk ... 

     I'm looking into getting a Basset since they are supposed to be really die hard hunting dawgs, and I notice the same things with show bred Bassets - they're DISGUSTING. Skin folds hanging over the eyes, which are so droopy the nictating membrane is readily visible. I don't know how the English Bulldog/Basset people can call themselves reputable when they are condeming these dogs to grossly overdone bone structure, skin folds that are just an invitation for bacteria ... we saw a Basset one time that was so low to the gound I don't know how she was able to carry a litter or nurse. The Basset people have told me they are not natural breeders, but we don't see this in field lines. This is what a field bred Basset looks like:

http://www.bassetnet.com/albums/BitsyKeith__Hare_12-21-03.jpg

http://www.bassetnet.com/albums/IMG_0775.jpg

wow, those are good looking bassets. Show bassets are gross looking as are bulldogs. I love me some Am. Bulldogs, though... lovely dogs.

 that is where sporting people make their first mistake when looking to the AKC for a working dog. yes they have a shelf for the working breeds... but i dont think the BREEDERS are doing anything more than just that.. breeding. its all a set standard based on a now extinct working dog.

they reversed the saying "Who cares what it looks like as long as it can win" to "I want it to win and look good doing it."

there are SEVERAL european "versions" of the Basset hound. to name a few...

Basset Artesien Normand

Basset Bleu De Gascogne

Basset Faeuve De Bretagne (which is basset griffon vendeen X wire haired dachshund)

there was a discussion in this forum about reversing the damage done by breed standards and many seem to think it would be a pointless waste of time and in some cases i will agree.... that is... if you dont outcross and bring in new blood. one guy, David Leavitt(former show bulldog enthusiast), did his best to repair his breed back in the 70's. some of the dogs looked pretty spiffy but some are still have horribly over exaggerated features. other people have followed suit and  SOME have improved on the design. but those dogs will always be considered mutts, designer dogs, etc and so on.

Here is Bert, the first  "Old Tyme Bulldogge" to be registered into the IKC (international  Kennel Club)

there are other types and names as well. Valley, Victorian, Dorset Old Tyme/type((this one is owned by a member of the working dog forum in the UK)), Sussex, Old Tyme, Banter... and a lot more than that i'm sure.

 anyway regardless, with the knowledge we have today on scientific breeding methods and a clear eye of what we want to achieve, our goals can be reached in half the time they could have years ago.

honestly i wouldnt mind getting my hands on a couple of Dorsets... but i think i would have hard time finding them in the US.... 

DumDog

that is where sporting people make their first mistake when looking to the AKC for a working dog. yes they have a shelf for the working breeds... but i dont think the BREEDERS are doing anything more than just that.. breeding. its all a set standard based on a now extinct working dog.

they reversed the saying "Who cares what it looks like as long as it can win" to "I want it to win and look good doing it."

     I couldn't agree with you more, unfortunately   Not to say most breeds don't have some well built representations out there, but once the extreme fads get rolling, they're almost impossible to stop. The people who breed away from that, and therefore stay away from the show ring, are labeled irresponsible. If it's not "show dog" correct, then it's not correct at all. It's sad. I've personally known breeders in my own breed, which is not known very much for exaggerations to breed genetic garbage where every pup in the litter had a genetic problem of varying degrees of severity ... because it was "show quality". They get more upset about a poor tail carriage than the fact that all the pups had health issues. Just snip off that cherry eye and take it in the show ring, sell the pup with the heart defect to a pet home ... I'm NOT trying to be condescending, but if that was me, I'd be selling the sire & dam off as pet quality as well. But *I'm* the disreputable breeder because I don't title my dogs or belong to any breed clubs.  ::sigh::

     BTW, I really like the look of the Old Tyme Bulldogs - although I hadn't known much about them. I'm glad people are breeding away from that grossly overdone walking health problem known as the English Bulldog, but I doubt the show standards will change.

nah the AKC show standard isnt likely to change, but thats why other kennel clubs exist.

i believe the UKC was brought into being because the AKC refused to admit the working APBT... or something along those lines.

 and i dont look at a breeder as being irresponsible if they dont register their dogs. i do care about the bloodline - its a good way to predict what you get - but what i look at is the quality of work the dogs are doing and are capable of. if i met up with an AB breeder tomorrow that had an unregistered litter of pups that came from two working parents they would be my choice over a UKC registered AB pair that grew up in the suburbs.

If i want a pet i'll go adopt one.