German shepherds moving away from breed standard?

I think every line is going to have their faults at times.  You just have to choose what is most important and least important.  I'm all about temperament and how the dog can work.  I don't want one that has no off switch, but I do want a dog that actually wants to work (and can) and doesn't just do it for the food. 

German Shepherds moved away from standards (here in America) long, long ago. That is why seriously devoted breeders returned to Germany  or Europe in general for truer GS standards.  I don't know the history of the King Shepherd but, in a nutshell, the Shiloh Shepherd's history is that a very devoted, careful GSD person was sick of what Americans were doing to the German Shepherd and she simply started breeding original form German Shepherds from Europe. Extremely careful breeding devoted to health, form and temperament, and a long program of strict surveillance in the breeding program led to subtle changes. Those changes eventually led to a breed divergance. There's a whole lot more to it than that, but that's basically how it started. Today, Shiloh Shepherds are usually larger than common American (not European) GSDs but they maintain the original healthy straight back whereas GSDs in American have a drastically sloped, sadly too often unhealthy, back. Not surprisingly, the last time I saw information about it, Shilohs also showed a considerably reduced rate of hip displaysia. The cautious breeding program also worked toward maintaining the intelligence and devotion most people associate with GSDs.

To really understand why a GSD breeder would develop a different (and they'd surely say "improved";) dog than what we know as the GSD now (not the same as GSD in Europe) you really should research how the breed came about. I'm sure that's true for King Shepherds too. I am very familiar with some GSD breeders berating the existence of Shilohs and Kings. Even the Shiloh folks may berate the existence of Kings and visa versa. What matters is that the breed was not a mix of two breeds as in Labor-and-Poodle, but a specific breeding program of one single breed toward improvement. For Shilohs, as I understand it, Infusion of another breed along the line was done for one purpose - to strengthen a weakness - and the infusion was temporary and done only after it was obvious the breed was changing on it's own.

Some GSDs are big because they come from excellent lines...not because they come from poor breeding but from very good breeding. But some that are big aren't GSDs. Most people don't know the difference. Most people don't even know a GSD can have a long coat and assume a long coat means it's a mixed breed. Generally, if you see what you think is a GSD and it's back doesn't slope drastically, chances may well be that the dog isn't a GSD unless it's an imported dog. After having research breeds a great deal before finally getting my first large dog, as much as I love German Shepherds and even had one once, I'd always go to the Shiloh Shepherd now simply because I know how devoted the breed founder was to having an excellent dog. But I'd do that with research into the breeder's lines to be sure it was a breeder who was seriously cautious to breed only the best to the best and trying to maintain all that is good and right about the breed. I'd do that whether I got another Shiloh, or a GSD or any other breed (so many to choose from) though. 

Kord fits the standard old world style IMO, he is 26 in at the shoulder, 78 lbs, lean, and has the stock coat, now if his ears had just been a bit smaller........

I think that many of the plush or long haired GSD's look bigger than they are too, and that gives off a "that dog is huge" message. I know that in her prime Babe weighed in at 85lb once, but she looked bigger and more solid, but she was also a plush.

But I do agree that many people think they should be 100lbs and growing. I hate to tell you how many times I have had strangers comment on how "small" he is. I ran into a woman one day who stated her dog was 120lbs and would have made a great show dog, I had to ask her how she would have accomplished this, she looked at me and said he is perfect, and I told her nope, he is outside the standard, he would never make it, yeah I know, sometimes my mouth works faster than my brain.

Just another example of bigger is better...............

myshiloh

German Shepherds moved away from standards (here in America) long, long ago. That is why seriously devoted breeders returned to Germany  or Europe in general for truer GS standards.  I don't know the history of the King Shepherd but, in a nutshell, the Shiloh Shepherd's history is that a very devoted, careful GSD person was sick of what Americans were doing to the German Shepherd and she simply started breeding original form German Shepherds from Europe. Extremely careful breeding devoted to health, form and temperament, and a long program of strict surveillance in the breeding program led to subtle changes. Those changes eventually led to a breed divergance. There's a whole lot more to it than that, but that's basically how it started. Today, Shiloh Shepherds are usually larger than common American (not European) GSDs but they maintain the original healthy straight back whereas GSDs in American have a drastically sloped, sadly too often unhealthy, back. Not surprisingly, the last time I saw information about it, Shilohs also showed a considerably reduced rate of hip displaysia. The cautious breeding program also worked toward maintaining the intelligence and devotion most people associate with GSDs.

To really understand why a GSD breeder would develop a different (and they'd surely say "improved";) dog than what we know as the GSD now (not the same as GSD in Europe) you really should research how the breed came about. I'm sure that's true for King Shepherds too. I am very familiar with some GSD breeders berating the existence of Shilohs and Kings. Even the Shiloh folks may berate the existence of Kings and visa versa. What matters is that the breed was not a mix of two breeds as in Labor-and-Poodle, but a specific breeding program of one single breed toward improvement. For Shilohs, as I understand it, Infusion of another breed along the line was done for one purpose - to strengthen a weakness - and the infusion was temporary and done only after it was obvious the breed was changing on it's own.

Some GSDs are big because they come from excellent lines...not because they come from poor breeding but from very good breeding. But some that are big aren't GSDs. Most people don't know the difference. Most people don't even know a GSD can have a long coat and assume a long coat means it's a mixed breed. Generally, if you see what you think is a GSD and it's back doesn't slope drastically, chances may well be that the dog isn't a GSD unless it's an imported dog. After having research breeds a great deal before finally getting my first large dog, as much as I love German Shepherds and even had one once, I'd always go to the Shiloh Shepherd now simply because I know how devoted the breed founder was to having an excellent dog. But I'd do that with research into the breeder's lines to be sure it was a breeder who was seriously cautious to breed only the best to the best and trying to maintain all that is good and right about the breed. I'd do that whether I got another Shiloh, or a GSD or any other breed (so many to choose from) though. 

you made some good points but the problem isnt whether or not its a shiloh, king, white, US or German line.. the breeders all probably started out with the best of intentions for the future of their breed ..BUT  it all boils down to one thing.... the general moronic puppy farmer getting their hands on a "cash cow" and thus the landslide begins. my cousin is a prime example of this. She bought a King Shepherd bitch from a well known (in a good way!) breeder in North Florida which she bred to anything that looked like a GSD. She gave one of the pups from the last breeding away to a "friend" who's boyfriend abused it. then she got the dog back, decided she wanted a puppy instead because "Boss was too soft and not a good guard dog for the 'breeding program'" so she decided to take him to the pound. ((((The truth was she got the puppy because someone GAVE her one and she accepted it forgetting the promise to her family that if she got another dog she would have to get rid of one of the others first)))) I hit the roof and and took Boss in and found him a home.

my cousin went with me when i first took him to the vet (one of her other excuses for not keeping him was he had "psiraketes" or what ever they're called and wouldnt gain weight) while at the vets office she ran into the breeder who sold her her first bitch. the woman is retired now and was sad to see Boss standing there looking thin as a rail and nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. and was even sadder to know she had contributed to a backyard breeder's program - one of of the main reasons she retired - i dont think my cousin could tell she had disappointed this old lady but you could see it in her eyes.

myshiloh

German Shepherds moved away from standards (here in America) long, long ago. That is why seriously devoted breeders returned to Germany  or Europe in general for truer GS standards.  I don't know the history of the King Shepherd but, in a nutshell, the Shiloh Shepherd's history is that a very devoted, careful GSD person was sick of what Americans were doing to the German Shepherd and she simply started breeding original form German Shepherds from Europe.

 Shilohs are not the "original form" of GSDs though, no matter how much Tina Barber wants people to believe they are. It is very easy to see this, when you look at pictures and read about some of the first GSDs and dogs that were being bred under the direction of the GSD founder. GSDs were never supposed to be huge dogs but "medium sized working dogs". http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/picturegallery/1.html Horand was the first registered GSD and it is obvious from the picture that he is neither huge nor hairy :) Also the picture of Von Stephanitz and one of his GSDs makes it pretty clear that the original dogs were not huge. If you look at the old pictures of the dogs, some appear that they were likely smaller and finer boned than most GSDs of today - certainly none would be called heavy boned. The breed originally was also to be judged on their working ability and Schutzhund was developed as a breeding suitability test for them. SchH, herding or working ability are not a requirement of breeding a Shiloh, so they are not following the "original form" with working temperament either.

 I don't have anything against Shilohs one way or another. I have only met a handful of them and only one that I knew had what I considered to be a sound temperament. I don't have enough one on one experience with them to say if that is the norm or not. They are a newer breed and obviously have dedicated owners and breeders, nothing wrong with that at all. I do have a problem with the misinformation being spread by Shiloh breeders claiming Shilohs are a recreation of the original GSD. Enjoy your breed for what they are and their own unique traits that make you want them but don't try to promote them as something they are not.

The working line shepherds are going to be the closes you are going to get when trying to find the old type shepherds. The show lines have gone way past what a true shepherd is suppose to look like. I have a few working line shepherds coming from ddr, west working line, and czech.

just want to ask the GSD people if "show lines" can't really work? can GSD dogs who join & win the conformation sport can not work to full potential?  i was wondering why they say "working line " & "show line". the working lines are used for personal protection while the show line are just for "vanity's" is this really true? someone who is 'into' GSD told me this and i was really wondering if it is so. aren't all dogs trainable whether they join conformation or not? i am just asking what i have heard.(and to learn)

ketchup

just want to ask the GSD people if "show lines" can't really work? can GSD dogs who join & win the conformation sport can not work to full potential?  i was wondering why they say "working line " & "show line". the working lines are used for personal protection while the show line are just for "vanity's" is this really true? someone who is 'into' GSD told me this and i was really wondering if it is so. aren't all dogs trainable whether they join conformation or not? i am just asking what i have heard.(and to learn)

Ketchup, first understand that there are TWO different "show" lines - the North American AKC/CKC show lines and the west German style high lines that show mainly in SV rings (sometimes UKC, not very often AKC).

Second, I personally think this is an issue of priority, not which dog is the better dog.  It's not that American dogs CANT work, it's that the priority for those breeders is conformation, a more mild temperament, and a beautiful gait.  Showing in conformation is expensive and trialing in SchH is expensive.  It's rare to find someone that can actually AFFORD to do both.  The people heavily involved in showing are breeding to improve on the qualities important to them, and the people heavily involved in sport are doing the same, but the qualities might differ.  It's not that one is better, or one is more of a German Shepherd (well...maybe...), but each group has their own priorities and of course breeds to improve what THEY think is important.  Showing GSDs in the AKC ring and being at the top is VERY competitive, expensive, and time consuming.  I don't know of anyone who is and even would have time to train and trial in SchH, even if they wanted to. 

So, say you are a state trooper in charge of a K9 unit.  You have to pick a few new dogs for police work.  Are you going to go with the group that has made obedience, tracking, and protection the priority, or the group that has focused on a mind-mannered dog with stunning conformation and a lovely flying gait? 

True..  Thanks for the info It's just really confusing...cause I had a healthy debate with a GSD enthusiast . He says those who show (conformation) can not truly perform & I just disagreed. I didn't know there are so many types. Thank you for clearing it up! Now I know, that those who join in conformation can still work and its just not "vanity" sake(as the one i had  debated said) actually the topic i posted was "spaying & neutering pets are important to those who do not conform this and he gave GSD as an example, he says those who were showing were destroying the true breeds purpose. I said that those dogs are trainable. Now, i know that THEY CAN . I'd post the topic, but the language is in tagalog & english it's in our philippine forum. Your right it's just really the priority of the breeder. I think he had no right to BASH the show breeders. If he has a problem with their breedings then he should confront the breeders instead. He said a responsible breeder for him was those who "Cull" puppies and he was asking me if i found it irresponsible, I said I "respected" those who do it,but for me it's really spaying and neutering(which I practice). I told him if he finds Culling puppies as the way responsible breeding should be, then he himself should practice that (But he doesn't ) so...he's just really weird.
 

IMHO, I think that there are probably several conformation champions that couldn't perform in schutzhund (which is most likely the "work" he was talking about).  It's just the show breeders are more focused on coat, gait, angulation, etc., that they sacrifice drive and temperament.  Now, I'm sure there are also a few champions that could compete in schutzhund, but as far as the majority of them....I doubt it. 

As far as culling goes, I think that is an irresponsible thing to do in this day and age.  If you were the person who bred the puppy, then you should be responsible enough to make sure it will be spayed/neutered and find it a good pet home.  I think that "way back when" when people had dogs for working purposes culling would be acceptable, but now that the majority of dog owners just want pets, there's no need for culling.  It's just an easy way out.

ketchup

True..  Thanks for the info It's just really confusing...cause I had a healthy debate with a GSD enthusiast . He says those who show (conformation) can not truly perform & I just disagreed. I didn't know there are so many types. Thank you for clearing it up! Now I know, that those who join in conformation can still work and its just not "vanity" sake(as the one i had  debated said) actually the topic i posted was "spaying & neutering pets are important to those who do not conform this and he gave GSD as an example, he says those who were showing were destroying the true breeds purpose. I said that those dogs are trainable. Now, i know that THEY CAN . I'd post the topic, but the language is in tagalog & english it's in our philippine forum. Your right it's just really the priority of the breeder. I think he had no right to BASH the show breeders. If he has a problem with their breedings then he should confront the breeders instead. He said a responsible breeder for him was those who "Cull" puppies and he was asking me if i found it irresponsible, I said I "respected" those who do it,but for me it's really spaying and neutering(which I practice). I told him if he finds Culling puppies as the way responsible breeding should be, then he himself should practice that (But he doesn't ) so...he's just really weird.
 

Actually, it depends on what you/they mean by "work".  I think of "work" as German herding at high levels, Schutzhund, or even more advanced ring sports and actual police work.  I don't think of agility or obedience as "work" because they are not designed to test the temperament of the German Shepherd.  Like workingdoglover says, the conformation champions likely would do very poorly in the SchH ring.  Even the current SV dogs are looking terrible, save for a few.  It's not enough to say that the dog CAN be trained in SchH or even that it has a SchH III title.  There's still quite a spectrum of how "good" the dogs are.  Even a novice can see the differences in drive.

Take a look at some of these dogs.  These are west German show dogs doing their "protection" test, similar to SchH.  See how some of them can't even do a decent heel on leash?  Some of them are munching on grass, or turning away and looking at the crowd when they are supposed to be "holding" the helper.  The handlers are having to correct their dogs, use leashes, grab their collars, etc.  The dogs are all over the place, lacking drive and focus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09xVRKc6Cg 

Now watch some of these videos.  THESE are WORKING German Shepherd dogs.

Biting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXM 

Obedience example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkO_VZPHLDk

Again, the bottom line is that AKC conformation folk are simply NOT breeding for good working drives and athletic ability.  Whether that's "bad" or "good" depends on what one expects from a German Shepherd dog.
 

Truley

Kord fits the standard old world style IMO, he is 26 in at the shoulder, 78 lbs, lean, and has the stock coat, now if his ears had just been a bit smaller........

 His size is within the current standard as well for both AKC and SV, although he is at the top of the standard (but he would have been considered rather large when compared to the original GSDs, if that is what you mean by "old world standard";). People who see my girl Jora who is about 23" and 60ish lbs comment on how "small" she is too, even though she is right in the middle of the height standard for bitches. My Amline GSd boy was 28" and 95lbs and people thought he was the "right" size (including most AKC show people when I mentioned he was oversized).

AgileGSD

Truley

Kord fits the standard old world style IMO, he is 26 in at the shoulder, 78 lbs, lean, and has the stock coat, now if his ears had just been a bit smaller........

 

 His size is within the current standard as well for both AKC and SV, although he is at the top of the standard (but he would have been considered rather large when compared to the original GSDs, if that is what you mean by "old world standard";). People who see my girl Jora who is about 23" and 60ish lbs comment on how "small" she is too, even though she is right in the middle of the height standard for bitches. My Amline GSd boy was 28" and 95lbs and people thought he was the "right" size (including most AKC show people when I mentioned he was oversized).

Yep, Kenya is 21" and under 60 lbs and people tell me she "can't be a GSD", lol, but she goes back to Lord, Ferro, Fado... 

I tend to agree myself that the working lines are closer to the original dogs than most of what you see today...hec - dutch and belgian shepherds are probably closer to the older GSD than most of today's dogs period.

However - the other thing to keep in mind is that today's standard is no longer the original standard that was Stephanitz's life work.  Things have changed and as a result so have the dogs.

~Cate