Meet Sabina (breed guess?)

IF I were you I'd leave off GSD for insurance purposes...they are (stupidly) on the banned/not preferred list for some companies...have you checked that with yours yet?

Yes, I did check and our insurance does not mind German Shepherds.

As far as I know they are against:

- Pits

- Pit mixes

- American Bull Dogs

- Staffordshire Bull Terriers

- Dobermans

- (some) Rottweilers ( I really don't understand "some";)

*pretty much all the Bully breeds + a few random ones....

The thing is, although there aren't any BSLs in our area, some breeds are looked down on... there was an incident that happened in our neighboring town involving a pit mix and a young child... so for "safety reasons" people who own breeds deemed as "aggressive" or "potentially aggressive" will be at risk of either loosing their home owners insurance comppletely or being taxed more to keep the dog. I know GSDs can be very aggressive at times, but here they are seen as more of a "Working dog" then an "attacker." (Yes, I know - STUPID!)

I am pretty certain Sabina is not a pit, staffie, or other bully mix (despite what others on here think she looks like). I personally have nothing against pits or other bully breeds, I just can't afford to own one in this case. When we were looking to adopt a dog, we made sure not to get "one of those breeds" for fear of any sort of problem.... well to make a long story short, our logic bit us in the ass, so to speak, and do to a rumor going around, an inspector from our insurance company will be coming to take a look at Sabina to see if she falls under one of those "segregated" breeds the next time they come to re-asses our house/property.

Now, I heard of many shelter lying about a dog's breeding to make them more adoptable, but this shelter had pits and pit mixes that were openly labeled as pits and pit mixes - why would they lie about this dog? The papers they gave us say she's a GSD/Lab and GSD/ACD - I personally don't think she's either, but I think ACD would be the closest...our vet believes GSD/Kelpie mix (and some do have blockier heads, just like the ACD)....

The insurance agents told us to get her re-registered to what we think she really is and they will make their decision when they come.
 

Sorry, you didn't ask for all that info, but I had a feeling it's going to have to be mentioned at some point or another, so I might as well mention it now. This is why am asking what breed she may be... regardless that she might be a mix of a mix of a mix... they still want some breeds to go by on...

.
 

rwbeagles

My actual thought, is that she looks like the protoypical mix of a mix of a mix....medium size medium coat erect ears and tan coat.

I agree.  I still see far more Kelpie than GSD, but that would depend on locale. The ears and profile of the face look Kelpie more than GSD.  It could be either but I would say there's not half GSD there, maybe if one of the parents was a GSD mix.  But yeah....start mixing for a few generations and you will end up with a medium sixes dog with *** ears and a shorter coat, just like what we have here. 

The problem is, no one  can say for certain what mix she is, not knowing her actual parentage. You could randomly pick ANY breed she vaguely resembles and each would be as accurate as the other, since no one can know for sure. And, it sounds as if, no matter what you put down, someone's going to be looking at her in person.

 Frankly, I've never heard of an insurance company going against a vet paper's guess on what a mix is.

True....

There's more to my story than a "mean" insurance company - but to cut right down to it, they were told to disregard the papers until they took their look and made their decision and then would be allowed to look at the papers to see if their ideas match...

Frankly, I find this all to be so stupid.. especially since I tried to hard to avoid a situation like this... I don't see why people punish the whole breed when one dog out of the thousands of its kind is the one causing trouble... I think Sabina's situation is just a rumor done bad, it's a mistake, but still... it just really irritates me that people can be so ignorant.

Really, thank you, all of you. I appreciate your feed back and suggestions. 

thats a thoroughly lousy situation..... anyway you can change companies to one that is not pro BSL?

i'm sorry to say it but they're probably going to see that wide head and short coat and say "PIT!"

you MIGHT get away with saying she is a Carolina Dog.... that breed is so random she could pass for one.

problem is... if you said she is a pound puppy then your word goes against theirs. if they dont know where you got her then you could lie your way through this ordeal - i certainly wouldnt fault you for it! - tell them you know for certain what mix she is because you knew both parents etc and so on.

Guys... this is a prime example of how BSL is going to effect and ruin us all...  

ETA

to see just how much pit she has in her check for an underbite. most first cross pits and bulldogs will have that tattle tale flaw... 

That is a crappy situation. Hopefully the insurance inspector won't be too bad. Be sure to tell them that you clipped her hair. That may help things. I would go with gsd/kelpie or gsd/cattle dog. I don't think they would buy gsd/lab.

I have a friend in Florida that ran into a similar situation. Her roof was damaged after a storm, and while the inspector was there he snapped a picture of her dog through the window. They canceled her insurance because her dog looked like it had some chow in it. It probably has chow in it, but the dog is probably only about 10 pounds. She had a really hard time finding insurance after that because no one wants to take a policy in Florida anymore.

DumDog and SalemsMom - thank you both for your suggestions and support through this.

(DumDog - Sabina has no underbite, infect she has the slightest overbite... Someone also suggested that I check for "lock jaw" while playing tug-O'-war... she doesn't...she gets a good grip but then always has to adjust it.) 

 (She does look a bit like the Carolina dog - thank you for letting me know about the breed, I never heard of it before. I will look into it more.)

We are thinking GSD/Kelpie so that's what were going to go with (our vet said Kelpie... but who knows for sure)....if they don't take it, then consequences for them will occur (we are planning on switching insurance companies after this ordeal anyhow, regardless of the outcome). 

Sabina is a great dog and it just bothers me how people can blame one dog for all the breed's problems.

They already know that we adopted a dog because we had to clear it with them...her being a GSD/Lab mix was no problem, but then a rumor spread saying she's a pit mix... which isn't true, but that's how this issue started. I still stand by the geneticist's science and say she cannot be a pit/bully, lab, or any floppy eared breed genetically. The picture of the straight eared pit questions me... if it's in the pound who's to say for sure it is a pit? It could just be a mix that gained pit like phenotypes... "just because some one many look Italian, doesn't mean that they are Italian."

 
Honestly, I'm not too worried, (but it still twists my stomach a bit)... I have "scientific proof,"  shelter papers, and vet papers (and none say pit)... If they are willing to pay for a DNA test I will agree to do one in order to prove my point that my dog isn't one of the BSLs breeds...

As for Sabina having a lot of cheek - she's a chewer... cheek muscles develop with work... we previously had a little Maltese who looked like a pit jaw-wise (I exaggerate a bit, but for a little toy breed, that dog could really clamp down, lol!) Yes, Sabina does have a blockier head, but there are many breeds our there with head shapes like hers... GSD for instance, can have a thicker skull, along with some kelpies, etc:

(Pictures:

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^^^All of these are registered Australian Kelpies except for the 1st one. The 1st dog is Hanging Tree Dog (aka: 1/8 Catahoula Leopard, 1/4 Australian Shepherd, 1/4 Kelpie and 3/8 to ½ cattle-bred Border Collie). As you can see some of these look like pit mixes, some have blockier head, some have winder jawbones, some look like Dobermans... but they're not... If you don't believe me, most of these dogs belong to the geneticist or are dogs she knows personally... she said if anyone has questions feel free to email her. I can give you her email if anyone likes.

Again thank you for your help with this! I really appreciate it!

Here's the thing, equest. Most of us do educated guesses, based on how common breeds are in certain regions, the dog's markings, the face shape, etc. Kelpies are not a common dog in most of the US. So unless you live in the middle of tons of farmland, or in Australia or somewhere they're more common, Kelpie is not an obvious guess.

That doesn't mean your dog CAN'T be Kelpie, it just means it's not the first breed of dog we'd guess when the cheeks, ears, whatever could be attributed to a much more common dog, such as the pit bull. (And this is coming from someone who thinks their dog might be part Kelpie...so I've looked into them a lot.)

I understand that pit bulls and pit mixes are not the easiest breeds of dog to own because of breed bans, but they're really nice dogs, and anyone who guesses pit is certainly not "putting down" your dog or anything.

I thought your dog was a shelter dog? So how can you be sure she's not a pit mix? "but then a rumor spread saying she's a pit mix... which isn't true" ???

You asked for opinions, you got them, and now you're refuting them, saying people are wrong because your shelter dog can't be a pit mix..because you don't want her to be? That's just silly... She's not an obvious pit mix, but you're asking a very dog-, and pit-savvy group.

Having said all that..I think saying GSD/Kelpie mix is fine. I don't see an insurance company denying you coverage and insisting the dog is a pit bull, when they can't prove it and she only subtly looks possibly pit.

Oh, no, I wasn't refuting anyone's suggestions. I really appreciate everyone's time they took to respond to my post and I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and support based on my situation. It's just genetically she cannot be a pit mix nor can she be any floppy or tipped ear mix.... if by chance she has such breeds in her...they would have to be so far back it wouldn't be enough to count as. 

I know that by guessing Sabina as being part pit is not a put down to her - I know I asked for opinions and yes I got them, and again, let me stress how thankful I am for people responding to my question. If you read my earlier posts, I have mentioned that I have nothing against pits. I have known many and they all have been very out going and lovable dogs, but due to my town and my insurance company I cannot [afford to] own one. I'm sorry if I sounded negative toward the bully breeds; that was not my intention.

The reason the "pit rumor" spread was because one of the neighbor kids who was playing with her tried to seem 'macho in front of his friends and told them that they better not pick on him or he'd sick "his pit bull" on them. It was all a joke, but a nosey neighbor took it to be true and wallah! - "Sabina's a pit bull mix... she came from the shelter and all shelter dogs are aggressive pits." - So, yeah...that's how it started...it's stupid that that blew up into this... so we are fighting to keep our dog over a statement made by a 7 year old boy - what a great source of judgment - lol.

As for you asking how can I be sure she's not a pit or bully mix... I'm not 100% sure, but I am certain she's not. She doesn't appear to be one, at least not in person..not physically or mentally. I have yet to see one characteristic of her being a pit...all I have is a blocky head...and that can be due to various other breeds, nothing else. The shelter I got her from had many pits and pit mixes there and they all openly labeled as pits and pit mixes... if people really thought she was a pit mix, how come it doesn't say that on any one of her papers or why does the vet tell me she's not?

 As for Kelpies being rare...they aren't in my area... we actually do live in a semi-rural community - that's another reason why GSDs are not on the potentially banned list... working/herding dogs are needed here and encouraged.

Although, Kelpies are somewhat common in this area (along with other Aussie breeds) - I am no way stating that my dog must be a Kelpie mix... She could be Basenji, some terrier, some hound breed, etc - I'm not sure. The only reason I'm saying Kelpie is because that was my vet's initial guess - GSD/Kelpie..I'm not saying she's wrong, I'm not saying she's right...I just need to put something [potentially correct] down on her registration...which is why I made this post in the first place.  

I'm sorry if I have personally offended you or anyone else on this forum... if I sounded abrupt I didn't mean to - I just stand by what the geneticist told me and what my vet believes; I am in no way a dog expert so I am just agreeing with the people who know dogs as their jobs...

Thank you for your input. 

sorry i dont care what the geneticist says about floppy ears. i know two staffy bulls right now that have upright ears and were born that way. pure bred and straight from the mother country. there is such a thing as a recessive gene.. thats what turns Dobermans white and sheep black. its uncommon, but the right mix will bring it out into the open. i have seen AKC registered shepherds with collie ears.

its all a gamble, this breeding stuff.

in the end its all  up to the guy they send out to your house.... i know i would get royally POed if someone did this to me just because my well behaved rescue dog LOOKS like a pit bull. 

First off, I'm sorry you're in such a crappy situation, I really feel for you. I think it is absolutely fine and believable to say your dog is GSD/Kelpie for insurance purposes. However, I don't buy what the geneticist said about floppy ears and standing up ears. I've seen pointy eared dogs come from two tip eared parents. In many of the herding breeds there's a huge variety of ear types and dogs from the same litter will all have different ears. I think it's fine though to use that statement from the geneticist to argue your case if it means being able to keep your dog, but I think it's false.

I don't think she's a GSD/Kelpie mix, I would think she is something else mixed with GSD OR Kelpie.  My guess would be some bully (like a pit or amstaff) mixed with GSD or Kelpie.  I think one or both of the parents are likely mixes themselves.  I don't think Basenji simply b/c they are so rare and those p*rick ears can come from literally hundreds of other breeds.

Liesje

I don't think Basenji simply b/c they are so rare and those p*rick ears can come from literally hundreds of other breeds.

i rule out Basenji too but only for the fact that they are rather small.... arent they JRT size? i wont say it couldnt happen.... just... what would the odds be?................................. i know that makes as much sense as the flop eared stuff lol...  and i know better than to underestimate a dog in love.. still..

one other thing to remember.... have your dog book handy!!! if this fella is not up to date on dog breeds he'll probably think youre making it all up. my cousin is such a person. when i say "words" like Borzoi, Anatolian, and Thai Ridge Back she accuses me of just pulling these names out of my rear.... 

I wonder if you could say GSD/ ridgeback mix. In the first pic, i thought her head kinda looked like my dog's...

I thought one of her pics also kinda looked like wyatt in this pic...