GSD's-German vs American lines

From what I know, the American line structure is not bad per se, but the east and west German working line structure is just more conducive to working all day (but that depends on the definition of "work"....).  It sounds like in your case, it wouldn't really matter all that much.  A well-bred American dog with good hips and elbows should be able to run along with you no problem. 

Keep in mind that they shouldn't do a lot of running until they are at least 18 months, more like 2 years old.  

Regardless of what line you choose, I'd check rescues first.  You can get very well-bred adult dogs with darn good pedigrees from rescues.  If you go with an adult, you will already be able to tell what kind of drives it has and how it has matured, structurally and in temperament.

As for "German" lines, there are really three types - west German working lines, German high lines/show lines, and "DDR" dogs/east German working lines.  There are as many differences between show line Germans and working line Germans as their are between any German type and American show lines.

There is some dispute over what makes a "working line" dog.  Some people classify "working lines" like the Czech border patrol dogs.  There are some Czech studs that have produced amazing dogs skilled in police work and border patrol.  Others refer to the very drivey and courageous dogs bred for sport like Schutzhund as "working line", but a lot of people disagree and say Schutzhund is still just a sport and that's not really a "working" dog.  Generally, the American line dogs do not excel as much at Schutzhund, border patrol, and police work like all of the so-called working lines and even the west German show lines.  It's not that the dogs aren't as good, but they are typically bred for show and for a more family companion type temperament.  They often do excel at agility, obedience, and even AKC style herding, but a lot of the drive has been bred out of them.  Some working line/sport dogs are very intense, energetic, and drivey and aren't suitable for just being a family pet.

I think in your situation I wouldn't focus too narrowly on lines, but look for a dog of very good breeding with great structure that has a solid temperament and maybe isn't as drivey.  I think an American dog would be fine being your companion and doing lots of outdoor activity.  If I were you, I would not rule out American dogs.  I'm not really partial to any line, it just depends on what the dog is for.  I would probably look for one that isn't quite as severely angulated as a lot of the American show lines are now.  You can find American/Canadian show line dogs that do have some really nice west German dogs in their pedigrees.  I personally really like these dogs (and I have a purebred west German working line dog, lol).

At the end of the day, a German Shepherd is a German Shepherd.  I think any line of dog, with a temperament and structure to match the standard, could possibly excel in any venue.  Often peoples' choices are merely cosmetic, but with a dog as popular as a GSD, luckily you really CAN find the right dog for you with the color, coat, and overall look that YOU want.  Many people find the dark working line sables to "wolfish" and only want a traditional black and tan (never mind that a true traditional GSD is probably NOT black and tan).  Other people love sables or love all black dogs, thus look at working lines because it is very rare to find a sable or all black German dog (American show lines it would be a lot easier to find).  Some people prefer the "look" of the American dogs while others think it's an abomination.

You probably want to PM Jackie/Xeph.  She knows more than I do and might even find some things wrong with my post, lol.  I would also join the German Shepherd forum.  There are some really great, reputable hobby breeders that post there that always have very good input.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php 

It's so cool to have knowledgeable people on the board! Thanks Liesje. That was really interesting. I look forward to reading what  Xeph has to say, too.

DakotaSpirit, good luck finding a dog and it's great that you're starting this early to look for one. I'll be interested to see how it all turns out for you.  

Thanks for the link and info.  I will have to look into it!  I would really love to own a sable or bicolor so will take my time to find the puppy that will fit what I am looking for.

I have been leaning more towards the German lines simply because I do want drive.  I am extremely interested in agility or even possibly herding.  The American lined ones I have met just don't seem to have the drive I want in a dog.

I know not to work pups hard.  My border collie just started accompanying me out on the trail recently and he is going on two years old.  I have never pushed him harder than he can work.  He helps me out herding (very cowy lines), but hasn't had any formal training so I would like to work on refining his cues.

You can easily find a sable or bicolor from German, DDR, and/or Czech working lines here in the USA.  If you want a more drivey dog and that color, that will make it easier for you.  You will likely not find a bi-color or sable German show line dog, I have only ever come across one German show line sable.  The other nice thing is that many of the working line dogs, especially dogs from old working lines, tend to be smaller and lankier than the west German or American show lines.  Many GSD people refer to working line dogs as "medium" sized dogs.  They are not always inherently better at agility, but IMO the lighter, more compact frame is definitely a plus where speed and turning on a dime are concerned.  My Kenya is such a dog and her jump height is 20", not 24", which is good because I prefer dogs jumping at the lowest height possible so they can stay competitive as long as possible and not injure or stress their joints.

It sounds like you will be a great owner for a GSD b/c you are active, into sport and herding, and it sounds like you have a lot of space for a dog to run and roam!  Plus you have a Border Collie so you already know ALL about smarts and intensity!!!

When you are ready, keep your eye on the Rescue forum on the GSD board.  I have seen sooooo many nice rich sables and bi-colors on there recently, some with known pedigrees or advertised as agility prospects.  If you want a puppy, post in the Puppy or Breeding section.  There are several members/mods that are hobby breeders of more "working" line dogs.  Many of the board members get pups from them and if not, they are who I would ask where to start looking.  I am not sure of anyone in your specific area, but they would know.

Thanks again!  I have no problem getting a dog long distance if it means quality.  I bought my border collie from Kansas and drove all the way down there from North Dakota to meet the breeder in person and meet some of their dogs.  I would do it again in a heartbeat as it's nice to get to see their breeding program in person.

I have also worked for a humane society so a rescue is also very possible.  However, I am looking more for a puppy/young adult simply because I have had better luck in the past introducing younger dogs to all the livestock I am around.  I do know that younger dogs do go through rescues quite often so I will keep my eye open as the time comes around.

 From what I'm reading you probably want a German show line.  I have had three GSDs, one a 3/4 German boy (I just refer to him as the German dog), a half and half dog (50% American 50% German working) and a 100% Am Line dog.

 I believe that a working line may be too much dog for what you want, but I can recommend good working line breeders of drivey dogs that are also marvelous house pets.

The breed (as you know) is prey drive, and for this reason I wouldn't recommend the working line simply because they are generally bred for high prey (helps with the protection work).  A Czech dog is likely to be MUCH too stubborn for you, and these lines tend to produce dogs that are low prey but high defense.  In other worse, these dogs can be very very PUSHY and while they do not react as readily to the quick movements of prey like rabbits, squirrels, or a quick moving human, they are more likely to FIGHT than take flight.

The defensive dogs also tend to be more civil (this means they'll bite for real, without a sleeve present) and they can show a disturbingly eerie "calm".  What they're really doing is waiting for an opening.  If you go on youtube you can see some of these dogs.  They seem almost boring during the courage test because the handler is calmly holding them, and the dog, unlike others, is not lunging, straining, or screaming to get to the helper.  Rather it is standing there, silent, and you can see that the muscles are tense and the dog is leaning forward, but it is not showing desperation to take the bite.

There are a couple of American lines I can recommend that would have the drive and biddability you are looking for in a sport dog, and the temperaments are nice.

For the most part though, I'd say German Showline would be the way for you to go, and can give you kennel names for them too :--)

S Konzert vom Drachenberg CD RN CGC OFA H/E  3/4 West German 1/4 American

Strauss is almost 4 years old, is 27" at the withers (an inch out of the American standard) and weighs 85.6 pounds (at sport weight)

Adobe's Warrior

This is Ranger, my half and half boy.  He is pictured here at 8.5 years of age in his last conformation show.  He is 25 3/4" at the withers, which is 1/4" under the maximum height in the American standard (26" for males).  He weighs about 78 pounds at 10 years old.

Stonekroft Zander v Avalon

Zander, my 100% American boy (now deceased).  He was around 26" at the withers and was about 75 pounds at two years old. 

Xeph-I appreciate your input!  I will keep that info in mind.  I would love to have some leads for breeders, but at this time I am just getting ready to head out of state for Guards training and am afraid it would get lost before I get back.  I will definitely keep you in mind though when I do return so I can start speaking directly with some breeders.

For some reason I REALLY like the looks of all the "half breeds" I see, lol.  Yours included, Xeph!  One day I love American dogs, the next day I love the west Germans, but the half breeds seem nicely balanced, at least for what I like.  Kenya's breeder has a "half breed" and I think she's soooooo pretty! 

As far as the prey drive, Xeph is right, Kenya is pretty insanely drivey.  House cats are not prey to her for some reason, but ANYTHING outdoors that is half her size or smaller she wants to be on like flies on a crap!  This can really work to our advantage though.  We've done some work developing toys as "prey" so we use games to motivate her and these prey toys as rewards.  The other side of the coin is having to develop and constantly proof a solid recall.  Often when we are out, I can't immediately call her off prey.  In certain environments or with certain animals as the prey, the drive can be very dangerous.

Whatever level drive the dog has, make sure you know the pros and cons, how you can use it to your advantage (especially with agility!), but where you have to be careful.