Let's Talk Shepherds for a moment

    • Gold Top Dog

    Let's Talk Shepherds for a moment

    At least 2 or 3 times a year, somebody joins this board with the inquiry "Why are American Shepherds crippled?" and thus, I have written this It is short, but has pictures of dogs in motion that I have critiqued.

     These pictures were sent to me for the sole purpose of being critiqued, thus I have permission to use them. No names are written on any of them, and I've no idea who's who.  I've also had my comments confirmed by somebody who has been in the breed for years, and has been quite successful.

     That said, onto the learning.

    The American German Shepherd Dog #1, does not have bad hips per se.  That is, the dogs are not dysplastic.  The majority OFA Good, and quite a few OFA excellent.  People are forgetting that OFAs are how the hip joint conforms to the socket, so a dog can walk like a cripple, but Beermedically speaking[/b] he is not one.

    The reason the Amline GSD walks funny is not because of bad hips, but because of an elongated thigh bone.  The length of the thigh bone causes instability in the rear, and thus the dog wobbles.  Loose ligamentation does not help things either, and it causes dogs to look very fluid and extreme in side gait when they move, but it will also cause the dog to break down more quickly when in motion.

    The angulation of the pastern in many Amlines isn't as bad as it once was.  The reason the dogs are landing with their pasterns in a plantar position is due to the angulation of the shoulder.  Many dogs have an upper arm that is too short/steep, and are straight through the shoulder, thus it will not open.

    Here is a picture of a 6 month old puppy bitch with an absolutely beautiful shoulder
    [img]http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/Dog9.gif[/img]

    And here is a dog who moves from the elbow:
    [img]http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/Dog2.gif[/img]

    And a dog with a straight shoulder who appears extreme in sidegait, but clearly moves from the elbow and will "Run downhill"
    [img]http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/Dog3.gif[/img]

    By the same token, while the West German dogs are moving away from the roachy topline (thank god), they too are now getting quite extreme in the rear, and I can already see where this is headed.

    Also, while level toplines are correct and all well and good, having a flat wither and complete lack of angulation front or rear is also incorrect, and I see a great many working line (East German/Czech) dogs that are much too straight on either or both ends.  The GSD should not look like a coyote dog, and there does come a point for me where no matter how well it works, if its conformation is lacking, I'm not going to mess with that dog.  I'll end up with a dog that breaks down from poor bone structure instead of loose ligamentation.

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    Xeph, good photo's.

    I should see if I can get a photo/video of Kord doing this, I of course think he looks like he is floating. But that does not mean he is. Big Smile

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    Xeph, if you have time can you post some Am GSDs next to some West German or DDR (or Czech I don't care) so I can see the difference?  I can see differences when they are next to each other, but the American GSDs are ones I can never pick out of a group b/c of all the different lines and structures, that's the one I know the least about.   

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    Ok, lets see if this works! Please don't laugh at my pic's, hard to take pictures of a moving target.

    I know he is not set but this is the best I could do alone, thank god for stay!

     

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    Yay, Kord! hehe.

     

    I think Kenya is from west German working lines, I'm not really sure, she looks like a combination of everything!  She is "butt high" a lot of the time (usually b/c she is too relaxed so tends to hunch.  If she is more alert, she picks her head up, opens her shoulders, and then has a slope to her back).  She also does not have such an extreme reach (front or back), even a beginner like me can see that, but I still love the way she moves with that rolling motion and her top line doesn't move at all.  It's like her entire body floats still a few inches above the ground and only her legs are moving (head, tail, top line stay still).  Like today when she escaped and was gaiting around the agility ring (ugh, see thread in general chat), I couldn't help but marvel at her movement!!  Some of the other GSD there were HUGE (there was one that was easily twice Kenya's weight, probably 28 inches!!!) and when they run/jump they look like camels or hunchbacks with that roached back and/or such extreme slop to their tops. Anyway, that had nothing to do with Am bred GSDs....

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    Xeph, that was REALLY interesting! I don't have anything to add because I don't know a thing about it, but I really enjoyed learning!

    I do know that watching Jaia move, especially run like that is like poetry and I just LOVE it! It's beauty.

    Thanks!  

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    think Kenya is from west German working lines, I'm not really sure, she looks like a combination of everything!  She is "butt high" a lot of the time (usually b/c she is too relaxed so tends to hunch.  If she is more alert, she picks her head up, opens her shoulders, and then has a slope to her back).

    Got a pedigree?

     

    Also, Truley, don't think I'm ignoring Kord. I don't want to critique on the pics you gave because they have him at an unflattering angle and unflattering moment in movement.  It wouldn't be a fair assessment.

     

    If any of you wish to see the rest of the gaiting critiques:

    http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/Gaiting
     

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    Here, Xeph....I don't really know what to make of it at all.  As far as I can tell, her breeder is using West German show lines, but not the really roached ones.  However, Kenya is small, butt high, has a very short, tight stock coat, and she is sable, so in my very limited experience she resembles nothing of the West German show lines.  But she doesn't look/seem DDR either.

    Pedigree:

    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/401054.html 

     

    The Kenya: 

    So, she hates when DH takes her pic so we had him try to do the stack, but she hates that too 

    As I'm picking something gross out of her tail .....she moves ALL four of her feet!

     

    There was a really weird smell in the yard this day.  Not a stack, but we've given up on that!

     

    Face

     

    No movement picks (at least, not ones that show what needs to be seen)

     

    These are her sibs:
     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Well, Lord Gleisdreieck is in her pedigre (o.o!!) and she is most definitely a working line dog. And Hector Karthago! Ooooo! East german I find the variation in her siblings quite interesting
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    I take it those are good?

     

    PS.  What do people mean when they say a dog has "good secondary sex characteristics"?  Does that refer to pigmentation? 

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    I believe that refers to a dog looking male and a b***h looking like a female. You can have females that look "doggy" and in some breeds that is quite severely faulted. The sexes should be distiguishable at a glance....not after an inspection.

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     Wow!  I learned alot about GSDs today!  Now, I have to see how Rex runs, and probably have to take pictures to critique!  Thank you all for putting this post here!

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    I can't for the life of me get a nice pic of Kenya gaiting, it's worse than trying to get her to stack.  She will do it nicely if we jog at the right pace, but DH doesn't know how to use my camera and doesn't really know what he's looking for to take the picture of.  When she's out in the yard, she doesn't gate, she either trots along or is in a full out sprint.  Ah, well, I got a really nice visual of her when she escaped from DH at the agility trial!!  I e-mailed the breeder about how nice she looked b/c it was the first time I saw her gait with the right perspective.  The breeder says she has great balance and efficient movement.  I always thought her front reach was too short, but she did look balanced.  Now I can see why she did good at dog shows!  I've always wondered how she got her Ch points when she refuses to stack. 

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    Xeph - Here's Jaia's Pedigree:

    RaJaia Vom TeMar

    And a few pictures:

     

     

    A puppy pic: 

     

    I'd love to here what you think of my boy! Thank you!   

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    haha.............and this would be Kord's line. The dog listed is a full brother.

    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/475942.html