"--doodle" question - just curious

ORIGINAL: inne
How did she do that any more than a purebred breeder exactly? My choice was not between this dog and a dog from a shelter or rescue, it was between this dog, a dog from a purebred breeder and a rescue dog. If I had not gotten a cockapoo, I would have bought a miniature poodle from a breeder and no one here would have accused that breeder of contributing to overpopulation and depriving dogs in shelters of homes.

 
I think the original point is that if you had your heart set on a cockapoo, then any number of shelters could have provided that mix without contributing more dogs into society.  Mixed breeds, no matter what the mix are the majority at any shelter in the country.  That is really the biggest point of the argument against popular mixing on purpose or designer dogs.
 
And no, there really isn't a difference between responsible breeding of mixed breeds or responsible breeding of pure breeds if we are only talking about s/n contracts and/or the hysical *ability* to not contribute to the overpopulation issues.  The second part of the argument though is how are these dogs proven?  Are they health tested?  Is there a true need for a new breed? (which really gets into a slipperly slope no matter what side you are on) which is where the biggest difference comes into play.  No doubt that the dog communities feel just the idea of purposely breeding mixed breeds just as a concept is extremely irresponsible in of itself.
 
Basically in the hypothetical example given above, you could have either supported a shelter and saved an already existing mixed breed of your liking, or you could have supported a responsible breeder who has proven stock, has put time and money into the history of their breeding program where you are continuing the preservation of an already well established breed.  (not attacking you here..just posing the hypothetical to support the argument !)
 
 

not only that if you want a large non shedding wooly dog a bouvier would fit, but I think that most ppl that get suckered into buy these mutts is because they "don't like poodles' or they "wanted a big non-shedder" so they basically just didn't bother to read a book about dog breeds I guess
 
I jsut want to add that the lady I bought my male shiba from is a great person she has bred shibas and shelties, she has rescued dogs of both breeds from shelters weather they were from her breeding or not.  I also bred my female shiba, she had 5 pups all of whom are still in their original homes and have also rescued shibas.
 
A truely great breeder not only breeds but rescues.  They take care of the pups they produce for their entire lives and will take in those in need.  They test all of their breeding stock for hereditary problems, every 2 years if the test says so, not just once.  They do trials of some sort with their dogs weather it is conformation, herding, lure coursing, hunt trials what ever their breed was created for, me personally I only want a Bouvier from a breeder that has titles on both ends of their dogs names.  A true responcable breeder does not make money from their pups, they breed for the love of the breed, and have maybe 2 litters a year.  If they are not doing all of this and more then thye are not great breeders.
 
As for the border colloies I understand why they dont want the AKC to interfere look at the differences between a show lab and a field lab or the same for goldens, and an american akita and a true japanese akita huge differences.
 
And to the person with the 14 week old lab pup, most dogs don't she at 14 weeks, sorry, neither of my shibas shed until 1 year, then they blew their puppy coat and they shed like a shiba should.
 
okay im stepping of my soap box

I had a Bouvier growing up--magnificent dog, named Harry--and now live across the street from one, a female. She is a pup--and a very difficult one at that, according to our friends.

I can relate, because we also have an Airedale, and if there's a more difficult breed I don't know of it.

Bouviers are great dogs.

But the comparison between Labradoodles and Bouviers for what we wanted (and got!) in terms of a companion/pet is ludicrous.

I'm not saying one is better/worse than the other. They are temperamentally worlds apart, though.

I would never, however, come on a message board and start telling loving, responsible, successful pet owners that their breed (or mix, or whatever) of choice is faulty and that its presence on earth is somehow wrong.

People can come up with all their silly fanatacism about poodle mixes all they want--for every argument they raise there are probably a hundred owners, like myself, who'll happily stand their dogs against any others for greatness by many measures, and win.

I don't think that any of us has a problem with the dog itself...we just have a problem with people who CALL themselves breeders deliberately creating more mixes and then charging through the nose for them.  In my local paper yesterday......
 
Golden doodles, $1375 cash
Golden Doodle Pups, $1400
golden doodle, 1 male, golden, wavy, non shedding, 14 weeks, $1450
labradoodles, 2nd gen champ, show, agility background, $1000, taking deposits
schnoodle pups, non shedding AKC (my butt) $1400
 
Now understand that this is NOT the going price in this area even for PUREBREDS.....airedales, $250, Basset hound pups, champ bloodlines, $500-1275, basset hounds, $250, ah, heres another mix...cairn terrier scottie HYBRID females, HOUSEBROKE, vet check AKC registry, $600,  chocolate labs $650, Cockers $200, gsds 150, english springers $500, gsd $250, gs, $250, labs (sire OFA) and these are 7 weeks old and READY to GO, and white, $600, malumutes $270 without papers, 350 with, pit bulls, $350 or 250 depending on the ad, poodles, $450 and then $350 in another ad,$250 in yet another, shih tzus, $350, Siberian huskys, $300, weimaraner, $500, Yorkie, $500.
 
So, yeah, there is a designer dog trend going strong even in my little neck of the woods and it's the mixes that are getting the biggest prices.

Schnoodles for $1400??  Buddy would've been really offended - he was worth a million bucks, at least!  And he was our first shelter dog so I'm sure my parents paid next to nothing for him. Seth Ruffer - please don't take offense because it is VERY clear to me that you love your dog and are a conscientious owner but seeing the prices that Glenda listed above for the doodles, can you really justify those amounts?  I can't imagine paying that for ANY dog - purebred, mixed, whatever.  OTOH - my SIL has a Rottie pup that she paid $2400 for.  Ouch.  He's very cute but $2400? S - love your name, my youngest son is Seth. Christi

I hear the arguments and I don't mean to piss anyone off but I just don;t think they're valid.
 
Yes, many breeders--some good, some bad--are getting outrageous sums for these dogs.  That will level off when there's a new "flavor of the month" breed.
 
But this is the market in action.
 
I see people who are dangerous on bicycles buying $75,000 Hummers and this country is about to get a rude awakening because pretty soon all the people who in the last 10 years have been buying $250,000 houses for $800,000 are gonna have to start selling them into a market that simply no longer exists.
 
What I know is that I have had many, many dogs in my life, and with the exception of one (a BC/Golden mix) none came close to Mojo--not even close.  He's a happy dog, in a happy home, king of the neighborhood (even the folks with dogs admit he's the greatest dog they know--and every doodle owner I know has the same experience) and we can have these discussions til the sun burns out--I for one will NEVER regret the breeding of this incredible breed.
 
They are excellent therapy dogs, sports dogs, companions and when we get a larger house we're gonna get him a little brother and sister--and guess what "breeds" they're gonna be?
 
PS:  Kudos to the person who got an Airedale for $250--we paid way, way more for Emma, and bought from one of the most competitive breeders in the northeast.
 
 
 

I have a purebred Aussie and a purebred Golden, both puppies.  I think I won't have either fixed, we'll have puppies and call them Golden Aussies.  After all, both breeds have excellent qualities about them but most of all, they're both so darn cute!  I bet I could make a million bucks, huh? Just kidding. Your intentions as an owner are certainly altruistic but I would bet money that the doodle breeders' are not.  They are fleecing the public and just because the market affords them the ability to do it doesn't make it right.  What happens to all these puppies when the market does level off and the new designer breed comes along?  Will they end up in shelters? All that said, the only interaction I've had with a Goldendoodle was at the dog park and he was a big, gorgeous, goofy, sweet dog.  I have no doubt about your claims to the greatness of this cross, no doubts whatsoever.  I did not mean to offend you in this or my previous post.  The funny thing is, even though I own two purebreds, I still find myself surfing petfinder because I LOVE looking at all the mixes.  If I hadn't found Samwise and Ruby, I'm sure we'd have two little mix puppies running around, but they would've come from the pound, not a breeder charging a horrendous amount of money for them. Christi

Christi--
 
You're lucky--both are great breeds, but you already know that.
 
But a couple of things:
 
First, if I understand some of the "anti-Doodle" arguments, a big point is why buy these dogs?  What's their purpose?
 
To which, I look in my backyard, and wonder the same about Airedales.  Why buy 'em?  Because of the constant power struggle?  Because it's fun to find yourself engaging in philosophic controversies with a canine that is convinced she wins every time?
 
Or how about one of my all-time favorite breeds--the Bernese Mountain Dog?  Quite popular here--and every bit as costly as "doodles".  But they have an average life span of six years!!  Why get them?  I really don't believe that the many suburban neighbors I have who own one needed them to cart their milk bottles from the barn to the homestead. 
 
You know why you get a Bernese?
 
Because you love them.
 
And because they're so incredibly beautiful and you can't walk a block without someone stopping you to comment on your beautiful dog, and becuase THAT experience appeals to human nature, guess what?  They cost a TON OF MONEY!!!
 
So should we stop these profiteering BMD entreprenuers from selling their short-lived treasures?
 
Sorry--I know I'm not changing anyone's mind, and I'm pretty sure you all know you're not changing mine, but for me the bottom line is that labradoodles and goldendoodles are incredible, mind-boggingly-easy-to-train animals that are finding an eager, expanding market because, for me and lots of people like me, it's hard tom imagine why most prospective pet owners wouldn't think about bringing one into their home.
 
This is NOT to say that someone shouldn't bring a Beagle, or a pound puppy or a Lhasa Apso into their home.  To each his own.
 
And yes, there ARE bad "doodle" breeders.  There are also bad Aussie breeders. 
 
It's a sad fact of life.
 
The other thing that I don't like is this cowardly tendency of some people to dismiss "doodles" by stating things like "you can get mutts anywhere"--the passive-aggressive message being "you just spent thousands on a mutt".
 
To these nitwits, I say so what?  I've had plenty of pound puppies, many of which were great dogs.  Why the need to use term "mutt" in what is clearly an underhanded, derogatory way?  Were you smarter because you spent your money on a purebreed?  Or are you perhaps envious because you did and you got a dog that might not be all you hoped for?
 
When someone suggests to me that instead of Mojo or the other doodles I know we could have gotten mutts from the local pound, what that means to me is I'm being addressed by someone who has absolutely no idea what he/she is talking about.
 
Some people like Labradoodles, some people like Mastiffs, some like shih tzus and others like those robotic things from Japan.  Again, to each their own.
 
 
 
 
 

You know, you yourself come off as quite passive-aggressive.  You've alluded in several of your posts that money is not an issue for you ("PS:  Kudos to the person who got an Airedale for $250--we paid way, way more for Emma, and bought from one of the most competitive breeders in the northeast.")  Not everyone is so fortunate. I get the feeling that you think we're all trying to change your mind about your dog.  I don't know about the others but I'm certainly not - as I said before I found the one I've met to be incredibly sweet.  MY point, which I thought I stated pretty clearly, is that I can't figure out why someone would pay so much money for ANY dog.  If I'm going to spend thousands on a dog, they better already be able to read, write, drive a car, paint the porch, and oh, a few titles would help, too.  I also have a problem with most of the doodle breeders promoting them as being "hypoallergenic" which is the silliest thing I've ever heard.  You're breeding two wonderful dogs and getting wonderful puppies but let's be honest here - there's a demand for them because they're so dang cute.  Who could resist that face - I get it! And as for me being smarter than anyone else because I bought a purebred well nope, I don't think so.  I wanted a dog that would be able to keep up with my young energetic family and that's exactly what I got.  I grew up with the breed and I knew what I was getting myself into.  NO REGRETS and no, I'm not envious of anything as you passive aggressively accused me of being.  Incidentally, Samwise, my Golden boy, was GIVEN to me from someone who saw and appreciated how well behaved  and well loved Ruby is and knew I could provide him with a loving home.  Not the ideal way to get a dog but I believe he was meant to be in our home.  No regrets there either.  MY point is that you don't have to spend thousands to get a great pet, purebred or mutt (which is NOT a derogatory word - but I wonder if erhaps YOU think it is). Christi 

No, I don't think "mutt" is a derogatory term--as I stated with equal clarity, I've owned many.

I don't like the dismissive "I could get a mutt any where" thing because to my paranoid little mind it insinuates that while the speaker's purebred is some state-of-the-art living, breathing shining example of what dogdom might one day evolve to, the dog that I have can be gotten "anywhere, anytime." I guess what I'm trying to say is I think it's rude. And it's wrong.

You're right--we are indeed fortunate, and try to behave in a way that we feel is appropriate for people as fortunate as us. We are very involved in charitable activities, politics and community initiatives. We also like labradoodles. A lot.

I'm troubled by the insinuation, though, that there's something wrong with spending money on a pet, or on anything else, for that matter, and perhaps it's my own complex to work out, but I don't think it's appropriate.

Someone at work today was remarking on some silly little news item about how Virgin Atlantic's next venture is going to be Virgin Galactic, which will offer rides in outer space for 20 minutes for $200,000.00, and apparently the article listed some famous names who've already signed up.

Another colleague said something along the lines of "boy, if only those people would give the money to charity rather than spending it on going up in space."

But I am willing to bet that people who'd spend 200k on a space ride probably give more to charity than I will ever earn--so I don't make judgements about how they spend their discretionary funds, and you shouldn't about how I spend mine, either.

Anyway, whatever. I have an incredible dog, and he's a labradoodle.

And after this experience, as a long, long time dog owner, I can state with certainty I'll never own another breed, mix, mutt, whatever you want to call it.

Just to clarify you can get almost every purebreed from a shelter just as you can get every doodle combo there is as well.  I have yet to find a doodle breeder that has, and will prove, that they do all the health tests on their breeding stock.  Because they are creating mixes I understand that they dont give a crap weather they start with a poodle that conforms to the standard, but they should, but don't, care about what problems they are passing onto the offspring they produce.  We are all very happy that you enjoy your dog, we hope you treat your dog well its whole life, as we all want for every dog.  We have problems with the breeders of these dogs that lie about the attributes of them.  I also have issues with breeders of purebred dogs that lie.  I knew a Shiba breed a few years ago that was telling people they are hypo-allergenic, they shed--alot, I reported her to the Can KC.  With true breeds I have that power if someone isnt following the by-laws you can do something about it.  If I find a breeder that is a member of the CanKC breeding dogs and only regestering half the litter I can do something about it, because there is a group seeing that the dogs are treated right.  If a member is selling sick or cross breed pups I, as a buyer, have some protection.  If you buy a dog from unregestered unproven stock, you are playing russian roulet with your pups health, and possibly your families health.  Why do people buy purebreds because we know what we are getting, we know what they will be as adults, we know their temperment, that is why purebred dogs are far superiour to mutts, IMHO. 
 
That said some mutt crosses do make better sence such as lab poodle cosses and golden poodle crosses, they were all bred to retrieve, so ya it follows that they would make good hunting swimming companions as the 2 breeds in the mix did that.  Just like a lab golden cross, dog will still hunt, still called a mutt though, no fancy name for them, would bprobably act alot like  a lab poodle cross, or a poodle or a lab.  Now you start mixing pugs and beagles that is a whole different mess.  The breathing problems of a pug and a dog that wants to go all days is a bad combo. 
 
Since there is no standard for a lab poodle cross or what ever cross you look at, there is no real regestry, no dog shows, few health tests done those BYB are making a killing off their pups.  If I wanted to sell a Shiba Inu for anywhere near ever $2000.00 it would have to have a heavy Ch. pedigree, be at the very least major pointed, if not finished in at least 2 countries, and a proven sire/dam of at least 5 CH pups, and have all of its health clearences.  By then I would have put WAYYYY more than $2000 into that dog, so I would still be loosing money.  So tell me how these poo doodle mutt breeders are doing it right and not breeding just for the money????
 
And for the record a poo breed will never be regestered with a reputable regestry, hybrid vigor is BS and a lot of poo crosses do infact shed.

ORIGINAL: Seth Ruffer

They are excellent therapy dogs, sports dogs, companions and when we get a larger house we're gonna get him a little brother and sister--and guess what "breeds" they're gonna be?

 
and when you do i hope it turns out as well as you hope as you can not determine what a dog of a mixed breed is going to be.  this dog may look more lab and shed, or be more hyper like the standard.  i am sure the breeders are not testing so you have a higher chance of genetic problems than i do buying my pup from a reputable breeder.
 
i love mutts but to intentionally breed them is ludiscrist and you know what?  most of the breeders of registered breeds should not be breeding either.  substandard dogs not fitting into the breed standard but because it is papered .... a good breeder breeds to standard to improve the breed.  their pups cost the same regardless of sex.  they show their dogs and know their breeds.
 
if you are happy with a labradoodle why would you not have been happy with either the standard or the labrador? 
 
i am very glad you are happy with your dog and being registered or not does not make a great dog but intentional breeding of a "mutt" and putting a designer name to it does not change the fact it is bred to make the breeder money.
 

I'm glad you feel that the Golden/Poodle and Lab/Poodle crosses make sense.
 
I agree with you that the Pug/Beagle cross does not--but A.) we're not talking about pug/beagle crosses in this thread; and B.) my opinion on them doesn;t count because I can not for the life of me understand why anyone anywhere would want a pug-anything.  But that's me--millions of people disagree with me, and I would NEVER go on a public board and start railing against the breeding of pugs.   And let's see...what do pugs do?  Well...hmmm..they don't hunt...they don't swim....they not service or therapy dogs...they don't have a rep for being particularly bright...hmmm.  They're basically ornaments that snort.  Maybe people just buy 'em 'cause they think they're cute!  That means the breeders are JUST SELLING THEM TO MAKE MONEY!!  DAMN!!!  CLOSE 'EM DOWN!!
 
 
 
 

I keep reading "no breed standard", "health risks", "not hypo-allegenic", etc.
 
I would like to hear from the people out there who own or have owned "doodles" and support these positions. 
 
I won't hold my breath, because I know there aren't many.  I AM NOT SAYING THERE ARE NONE--I AM SAYING THERE AREN'T MANY.
 
Far as "breed standards", of course there are, and these are easily attainable on the net.  Obviously, since labradoodles are new, the standards are evolving.  The many, many responsible breeders of this incredible animal are quite clear in simple English about this.
 
Far as health risks and testing, responsible "doodle" breeders do every bit as much or more testing than the "champioship" breeder who bred our Airedale, Emma.  The vast majority of labradoodle owners I know have had had "doodles" who've lived long, healthy, athletic lives.
 
"Hypo-allegenic/non-shedding" is not a certainty (and, as stated before, NEVER 100% true, anyway*), and there are lots of responsible breeders who are quite clear about this (let me know if you want links.)   In my face-to-face and cyber interactions with many, many people who own labradoodles, I know of exactly three who have been disappointed in this regard--one personally, and two I've communicated with on the net.
 
We have an acquaintance in the next town over whose Rottweiler pup had mange (I think they had to put him down, but I'm not sure--haven't seen them in a while.)  Anyway, their breeder absolutely refused to take responsibility and, worse, interest, in the situtation.  Irresponsible breeder!  Stop the selling of Rottweilers!!
 
Go to the Rainbow Bridge section of this forum right now and find the person whose breeder apparently--and tragically--"forgot" to tel them that the breed had a far shorter life span than the person anticipated.  I don't remember the breed, but whatever it was--irresponsible breeding!  Pull 'em off the shelves!!
 
Anyway, I could go on and on, but you get the point.  And until I start hearing these complaints from labradoodle owners in numbers that mean something, I think you get mine.
 
*Mojo is not non-shedding.  But he sheds less in a year than my collies shed in an afternoon.  So I call him non-shedding.  Have your lawyers contact mine.
 
 
 
 

I fostered a litter of 12 week old labradoodles...funniest thing, the breeders couldn't sell them so they dumped them at the shelter.  Honestly, I couldn't identify either parent in the pups.  They were sweet and adorable, as all pups are, but there was NO consistency in the characteristics and while some had the tight curly fur, some weren't even WAVY.  To me, sorry to say, they were a litter of unfortunate mutts who were no more or less than any other litter of unwanted pups.