Dog Community

Pit bull dog aggression questions

Posted : 9/5/2007 10:37:16 AM

Looking for answers from folks experienced with PBs to help someone else:

* Does dog aggression in pit bulls (APBTs) develop as they mature? If so, is there a certain age when DA would become obvious?

* Can it develop slowly over the course of a few months?

* Does it first show itself with aggression toward the same gender and size? or are gender and size irrelevent?

* If a dog can become DA, what about dogs in its family? Will it become aggressive with them as well?

Specifically: Could a dog that at age 6 months got along with other dogs be DA at 18-24 months?

[8|] Random probably unanswerable question: If the dog is a PB mix, but mostly PB, how would this impact the possible development of DA?

Background about why I'm asking:

The dog in question is an almost 2 yr old neutered male living in a family that includes kids and a much older, smaller, spayed female mix. The dog is "not 100%" PB as per the original litter owner---it sounds like he is 7/8 PB if this matters.[8|]

The dog has had basic obedience training, extensive socialization and goes everywhere possible with the family. During good/warmer weather he had frequent contact with strange dogs in an outdoor setting on leash and had no problems, but had very little contact during the winter a.k.a, after he turned 1. In the spring he began acting "hostile" toward other dogs and at first this seemed to be directed toward other males/dogs his size. This has evolved into him acting "aggressively" with dogs he meets on leash , and barking, charging and jumping on the fenceline of his yard when dogs pass by---which doesn't happen alot.

FYI He did not have a "bad" encounter with another dog to trigger this and otherwise his behavior is unchanged, his checkup at the vet was good and he is healthy.

It was suggested to the owners that he is genetically

re-disposed to DA. Since they don't agree that "genes are destiny," and "he isn't fully 100% PB" they disregarded the PB comments and looked at it as a training/socialization issue. During the past couple of months they have reluctantly started to consider if he is just naturally disposed to be "unfriendly" with other dogs and nothing they can do will change this because it is just the way he is.

Thoughts anyone??? Is this dog's behavior a result of people designing dogs to fight each other? If so, can positive training methods curtail this? Will he become unfriendly with the dog he lives with?

P.S. I am NOT trying to open a can of worms, I am trying to collect answers from people who have experience with APBTs. If anyone has the urge to hijack this thread I thank you in advance for your restraint.[

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iiartisanii

Posted : 9/5/2007 11:15:24 AM

Dog aggression is not a "pit bull trait". It is a dog trait that presents itself when a dog lacks socialization. Not all pit bulls are going to develop aggression and if they do, it can be curtailed with proper training.

I think its high time we stop labeling this a breed trait and start thinking of the dogs as individuals. Because they are.

Pit bulls are not born with some "aggression gene". It is a learned behavior. So the amount of pit bull that your dog has in it is not going to directly affect the dog's behavior. Only the dog's outside world can modify its behavior. Its owner can modify its behavior. If you don't socialize, you'll have an aggressive dog. If you don't take an assertive role, you'll have an aggressive, dominant dog.

So instead of allowing aggression to develop and then say "oh well its normal because he's a pit bull", why not just take an active role in always preventing it from occuring? Don't give your dog permission to be hostile toward other dogs.

I have Bearded Collies and they are known to be escape artists. But I don't let my dogs roam the streets because "oh they're Beardies thats what they do". I took the time to train them and to modify their behavior to accomodate ME, not the other way around!

Anonymous

Posted : 9/5/2007 11:17:02 AM

Dog aggression can show up very early, but in my experience it is more common to see if start at 12 - 18 months of age. Rosco was great with all other dogs until 18 months and then started getting picky about what males he got along with. As a 5 year old now, he is great with the dogs he knows, and after a proper introduction great with most dogs he meets. He lives with an Aussie puppy and a lab/pointer and is 100% wonderful with them.

We do not leave him home alone without crating/separating the other dogs. Pack dynamics change when we aren't home, and the number one rule with pits is that you never trust them not to fight - meaning it is always a possibility. My guess is that he shouldn't have problems with a dog he was raised with of the opposite sex, but again, he needs to be supervised closely and positively encouraged for every good interaction he has with any dog - in or outside of the house.

This dog should get into training ASAP, and not just one series of classes, but several where he can continually be around other dogs and has to focus on his person and work. Pits love the work with their people - so agility or something fun will double as a relationship builder and obedience work for him. He needs a positive reinforcement trainer - look here for one:http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/default.aspx

The keys for lifelong pit ownership are training and management of the dog aggression. Most pits are DA but to what degree varies by each dog.

Jewlieee

Posted : 9/5/2007 11:54:06 AM

Dog aggression is not a "pit bull trait". It is a dog trait that presents itself when a dog lacks socialization.

I disagree with this. Not the part about being a pit bull trait, but about dog aggression being a dog trait that presents itself due to lack of socialization. It is sometimes a breed trait - one that can be worked around but a breed trait none the less. Akita's, for example,

Akitas were developed to hunt other animals. Most Akitas will not tolerate another dog of the same sex, and some won't tolerate the opposite sex either. Most Akitas have strong instincts to chase and seize cats and other fleeing creatures, including deer and livestock. If anything goes wrong in the breeding, socializing, training, handling, or management of this breed, it is capable of seriously injuring or killing other animals.

I think that it is a very good idea that owners of guardian breeds become educated on what the breeds are capable of in the absense of proper training, socialization, etc. Even when you have done everything right, you should still be aware of what a dog genetically wired for and take precautions.

iiartisanii

Posted : 9/5/2007 12:24:44 PM

ORIGINAL: Jewlieee

Akitas were developed to hunt other animals. Most Akitas will not tolerate another dog of the same sex, and some won't tolerate the opposite sex either. Most Akitas have strong instincts to chase and seize cats and other fleeing creatures, including deer and livestock. If anything goes wrong in the breeding, socializing, training, handling, or management of this breed, it is capable of seriously injuring or killing other animals.

I think that it is a very good idea that owners of guardian breeds become educated on what the breeds are capable of in the absense of proper training, socialization, etc. Even when you have done everything right, you should still be aware of what a dog genetically wired for and take precautions.

This has just officially gotten off-topic but it stands to say that the Akita Club of America has listed "tolerant of other dogs" as the 11th most important temperment feature of the Akita. In fact, I know of plenty of people who keep their intact Akitas in their home with other dogs without a lot of issue.
Akitas may have been bred to hunt animals but lots of breeds are bred to hunt animals. Saying that dog aggression is a breed trait because the dog is a hunter sounds like a cop-out to me. We're quick to accept unwanted behaviors because they have been labeled as something that is "normal" in a certain breed, when other dogs of similar ancestry do not have these issues.

In regards to the bull-baiting breeds . . you don't see this kind of "breed" aggression in most Bulldogs or Bull terriers. Were they not bred for the same thing? Sure they're both known to be stubborn and dominant. Thats a terrier for you.

Dog_ma

Posted : 9/5/2007 12:33:38 PM

ORIGINAL: iiartisanii

Dog aggression is not a "pit bull trait". It is a dog trait that presents itself when a dog lacks socialization. Not all pit bulls are going to develop aggression and if they do, it can be curtailed with proper training.

I strongly disagree with this, as do most "pitbull people."

OP, puppies of all breeds usually get along with other dogs. Aggression in male dogs usually develops at or after 18 months. It can develop earlier or later - that's an average. But it is very typical for a dog to be friendly as a pup and start changing as it reaches adulthood.

buster the show dog

Posted : 9/5/2007 2:15:27 PM

ORIGINAL: iiartisanii

Dog aggression is not a "pit bull trait". It is a dog trait that presents itself when a dog lacks socialization. Not all pit bulls are going to develop aggression and if they do, it can be curtailed with proper training.
..........
Pit bulls are not born with some "aggression gene". It is a learned behavior.

I think Diane Jessup, whose credentials as a pitbull fancier and trainer are pretty impeccable would disagree with the above. Go to her [linkhttp://www.workingpitbull.com/]pit bull website[/link] and scroll about half way down her page called "about pit bulls" for this quote:

From Diane Jessup's site:
From his history as a hunter's gripping dog, butcher's bull-baiter and gambler's dog fighter, the pit bull has inherited a strong desire to test his mettle against other animals. Many pit bulls are friendly with other dogs, and many live with cats and livestock, but it is not unusual for some pit bulls to be intolerant of other dogs and animals. Despite the good intentioned advice of dog trainers who have little experience with bulldogs, or who fail to understand the dynamic nature of the breed, training and early socialization has only a minor effect on how dog aggressive a specific pit bull will become once it matures. Genetics play a much larger role. I recently had the opportunity to raise an entire litter of eight pit bull pups from birth to their present age of eight years. These dogs were raised in the same environment, exposed to the same experiences and heavily socialized. The scale of dog aggression within this litter runs from a completely passive dog which will not show aggression to any animal even when attacked, to a dog which will grab any strange animal on sight - and everything in between. This is genetic expression at work - not the effects of socialization. It is important, therefore, that a person wishing to purchase a pit bull have a good understanding of the genetic background of the dogs from which their puppy will be bred. Understand also, that with a "scatterbred" dog, that is a dog which blends different bloodlines in its pedigree, you will be unable to guess which genetic expression will come to the forefront.

Bottom line - if you chose to own a fighting dog breed, don't foolishly be surprised if the animal expresses aggression toward other dogs. Respect the animal's genetic history and treat it accordingly. You woulnd't be surprised if you bought a German shepherd and it was aggressive toward strangers, would you?

So... good training and good socialization are critical to help manage and control aggressive behavior, but they won't make the desire to behave aggressively go away. And because dogs with that genetic tendency will always have the desire to behave aggressively, no matter how well trained, it is absolutely essential that they be managed with utmost care to make sure they never have the chance to fight with another dog.

Just like good fences and vigilant confinement are essential whenever an escape artist is left unsupervised, no matter how well socialized and trained he may be.

iiartisanii

Posted : 9/5/2007 3:15:21 PM

There is no "aggression" gene in a dog that makes them want to kill each other. Quite the contrary . . all dogs, even Pit bulls and Akitas are at their very core, pack animals. It is not a dog's natural tendency to want to maul and kill a member of its own species. Naturally all animals gravitate toward balance and a dog that is attacking other dogs is not a balanced dog, which would lead me to the conclusion that this behavior is learned or conditioned and not bred. Being a Pit bull or being an Akita does not ever trump being a dog and having a dog's natural instincts.

I do believe that some breeds have a propensity to be more dominant than others, which would aggravate any tendency toward aggression if the dominance was not properly controlled. Couple that with a dog that is physically strong and mentally strong willed and you have a recipe for disaster.

I'm not arguing with the fact that aggression in these breeds is an issue, but I do think it has been mislabeled as a breed "trait". Being unbalanced is not a trait, it is the result of something rudimentary missing from the dog's life. Whether that is training or conditioning or the dog being more dominant than its owner is up for debate.

Pwca

Posted : 9/5/2007 3:40:26 PM

iiartisanii, I'm sorry- I usually agree with you, but in this case, I think you're wrong.

A lack of dog tolerence isn't necessarily connected to dominance, although dominance/rank issues can certainly confuse the diagnosis of dog aggression and rank issues CAN modify it, unless you mean that dogs who are only dominant with dogs and not with people- because frankly, I meet a lot of very nice handler-soft pit bulls who ARE dog aggressive. Their socialization varies from extensive to problematic, but they are all fairly responsive to a handler- even if it's not their owner- and the vast majority of the adults are dog aggressive to one degree or another.

I also think the ACoA lists temperament as the 11th most important feature because it has been such a problem in the past. All the multiple-Akita owners I know have showdogs who are well socialized, from impeccable backgrounds. In general, the rescues and BYB dogs have significant dog aggression towards dogs of the same sex, and frequently ARE dominant towards both dogs and humans- it's a very different situation than PBs., I think it's very much to the credit of the responsible AKita breeders that this trait has been minimized so much.

BadRap.org has some good articles on this.

iiartisanii

Posted : 9/5/2007 3:58:30 PM

ORIGINAL: Pwca

A lack of dog tolerence isn't necessarily connected to dominance, although dominance/rank issues can certainly confuse the diagnosis of dog aggression and rank issues CAN modify it, unless you mean that dogs who are only dominant with dogs and not with people- because frankly, I meet a lot of very nice handler-soft pit bulls who ARE dog aggressive. Their socialization varies from extensive to problematic, but they are all fairly responsive to a handler- even if it's not their owner- and the vast majority of the adults are dog aggressive to one degree or another.

I am only talking about dog aggression toward other dogs. Not dogs that are aggressive toward people. That is a whole 'nother ball game.

buster the show dog

Posted : 9/5/2007 4:23:02 PM

In answer to the original poster's specific questions:

It is unusual for very young puppies of any breed to express dog aggression. It is a common, albeit not universal, pattern for friendly well socialized pit bulls do begin to express dog aggression sometime between a year and two years of age.

It is common for dog aggression to be expressed sporadically at first. It may continue to be sporadic, or it may intensify.

Generally dogs will be more likey to be aggressive toward members of the same sex, although those with high levels of aggression will generalize to both sexes. Some pit bull fanciers claim that "true" pit bulls are often uninterested in fighting with smaller weaker dogs, as if they consider them to be unworthy opponents. I wouldn't depend on this being the case.

Most pit bull fanciers will insist that one should never depend on an unsupervised pit bull not to expression aggression against another dog, regardless of what the prior history is between those two dogs.

Yes a dog-friendly puppy could absolutely become dog aggressive by the time it was a year and a half to two years old, regardless of how well socialized it was.

Again, this is not to say that socialization and training aren't important in relation to dog aggression. They are, but their value lies in giving the owner tools to help manage and control the aggression, not to make the dog's desire to be aggressive go away. And of course, just as there are degrees of hip dysplasia, there are degrees of aggression, from levels that only barely express themselves intermittently, and perhaps only under stress, to levels that seriously impair the quality of a dog's life.

spiritdogs

Posted : 9/5/2007 4:25:25 PM

Does dog aggression in pit bulls (APBTs) develop as they mature? If so, is there a certain age when DA would become obvious?
Not always, but in a large percentage of dogs it does. There is no set time when this happens, and I've seen the "switch go off" at age 9-10 months, and at age 3 yrs.

* Can it develop slowly over the course of a few months? Yes

* Does it first show itself with aggression toward the same gender and size? or are gender and size irrelevent? Not necessarily. Gender and size are not always relevant, and not always irrelevant.

* If a dog can become DA, what about dogs in its family? Will it become aggressive with them as well? Unfortunately, it can. The likelihood is less if the other dogs are submissive, of opposite gender, and of disparate age. But, no guarantees.

Specifically: Could a dog that at age 6 months got along with other dogs be DA at 18-24 months? Absolutely, which is why some Pittie owners get in trouble - they assume that if their dog is friendly as a youngster they can just keep taking it to the dog park. Doesn't always bode well for their dog - or the ones at the park:-(

Random probably unanswerable question: If the dog is a PB mix, but mostly PB, how would this impact the possible development of DA? The same way as any other genetic trait. It is possible for such a dog to be non-aggressive, mildly aggressive, or a PITA.

Dog aggression is a characteristic that is endemic in the Pit breed, just as herdiness is in the Aussie or the Border Collie. But, as there are some Aussies that don't herd worth a crap, there are some Pibbles that aren't aggressive at all. But, personally, if I owned this breed, I would not take any chances. These dogs can be non-aggressive for years, but if another dog starts a serious tiff, the Pitties will often finish it.

Not all pit bulls are going to develop aggression and if they do, it can be curtailed with proper training.

While it is correct that they won't all develop aggression, a relatively high percentage of them do (and I am referring to dog to dog aggression, since most Pitties are great with people). And, they are a very trainable breed, but no dog (or human, for that matter) is ever 100% perfect, so even a well trained Pit needs to be under control at all times, and not off leash in public areas where they could be accosted by other off leash dogs. The fact that any incident is always blamed on the Pit (or Dobe, or Akita, or GSD, or Rott) is enough to make responsible owners take extra precautions to keep their dogs from becoming a statistic.

Jacob Thornley

Posted : 9/5/2007 5:21:28 PM

I'm no expert, but this is what I've come to believe and understand as the truth. I could be wrong, but I think this totally fits in how dog behavior is.

Dog Instincts - Pack Animals. Natural dog aggression comes into play when a new dog is trying to become a member of the pack. They have to fight, talk, smell, lick, etc... to figure out where each other fits into the pack.

Breed Traits - Bully, Stubborn, Headstrong. These tend to be some of the traits of a Pit Bull, they try HARD to get what they want; be it pleasing the owner or getting some food. They normally don't give up. This tend to be the reason when they bite, they don't want to let go.

Any dog can be trained to be dog aggressive by a simple mistake or intentional training via the owner. Pit Bulls are one of the worst breeds for this as the typical owners of this breed tend to want their dogs to look "tough" or "aggressive" by throwing a choke, pinch, prong collar on.

The thing to keep in mind here is that as a puppy every dog wants to socialize with other dogs. So imagine if every time your puppy started to run off to see another dog, they end up getting choked, pinched, or pronged... whats this going to eventually tell the puppy?

puppy - "Hey! It's another dog! Every time I see a dog I get hurt! Lets kill it before I get hurt again!"

DumDog

Posted : 9/5/2007 5:53:45 PM

i'm on the side of... its not a gene.... bull breeds are dominant independant minded breeds. they think for themselves. and yet they are EAGER to please. Kaydee will try to second guess me all the time. if she seems me struggling with an animal or person then wants to have a go at them because... i'm struggling.
but if i am NOT struggling then she is fine and dandy and wants to play with any and everyone. she is dominant and female dominant in particular. i dont really want to say "Female aggressive" because she's not actively seeking to attack and maim all female dogs. but if the other female dog has the idea that she is Boss Hog Kaydee will put a stop to it in a hurry.... but i had a german shepherd mix when i was a kid that was just like that.
But Bulldogs DO have what i like to call "shark mode".... when they do get riled up and actually do get in a fight their mindset is "kill it before it kills me/the master/family etc!"

they also have gameness.. thats a trait. they have tenacity.. also a train, stuborn... a trait for most.. independence is a trait.... but its not independent like a chow, husky or hound, constantly running away from you. their independence is more like "ok you cant think for yourself so i'll do it for you.. you dont REALLY want to do that so lets do this instead" which is why they need a dominant owner. half of the training i do with Kaydee is trying to put myself in her place and think on her level. i've been accurate about 80% of the time..... if i can picture her doing it... then she can and WILL do it... leaping over fences, digging out, climbing trees or ladders, or reacting to situations where she feels the family is in danger. i have to read the person/animals body language... not hers... which means... if that LOOKS like a threatening posture... then Kaydee will feel threatened. if that looks like a submissive posture, then she will accept you.. if it looks fearful then she will be suspicious and reactive.

but Kaydee isnt a pit bull..... [8|] but she is a bulldog.