Breding

Back to the OP...can you visualize this?  The OP bringing two male dogs to the guest room each night for ....ehem...?? I wonder if the OP lit candles and played soft music too?  [sm=rotfl.gif]This is one STRANGE post- although I guess it really didn't stay on topic very long- how could it?  Maybe someone should create a "Duke it Out" catagory.

ORIGINAL: Zoe and Zuma

Back to the OP...can you visualize this?  The OP bringing two male dogs to the guest room each night for ....ehem...?? I wonder if the OP lit candles and played soft music too?  [sm=rotfl.gif]This is one STRANGE post- although I guess it really didn't stay on topic very long- how could it?  Maybe someone should create a "Duke it Out" catagory.

lol good idea, and yeah i imagined the same thing.. romantic Lady and the Tramp dinner.... two dogs looking at either kinda bemused like... "dude... doesnt he know?... you know? i mean.... oh never mind, pass the wine..."

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: DumDog

should a responsible breeder even WANT to support the demand? that means they are doing it for a profit, either to make themselves feel like champs, or so they can make some money.... which is not being very responcible.. is it?

Doesn't mean that at all.  The deed is supplying good quality puppies to the public that wants puppies.  This is what the "responsible" breeder espouses, that all other breeders type follow their guidelines.  And since "responsible breeding" spends more money versus taken in, the model is not a good one in order to supply demand.  But I don't care if they make a profit or not.

no it isnt just spending more money than taking in. it is knowing there is a buyer BEFORE breeding. it is taking in a deposit - which should also be used to pay for the upkeep of that puppy before its ready to go to its new home.
so in my mind, a responsible breeder neither profits NOR loses out on a breeding. it is supplying someone with a dog that already knows they want this dog... not just casting a baited hook out into the ocean of uncertainty. someone perusing the papers or a dog breed catalog and sees "puppies ready to go" ... "next planned breeding, taking deposits now" are far more responsible. even if the buyer backs out in the end.... the majority of the pups find their homes as opposed to networking and trying to convince people to buy your product. my husband is a salesman, and what i see dog breeders doing is a LOT like what he does for a living.... these are living creatures not ACME Super Duper Stain Reducer!

the other thing that irks me with this thread is that the OP was obviously ignorant about mammals AND breeding. now that he has been educated he no longer needs us. he's found a bitch and probably has a litter of pups on their way in the coming months.
and the process repeats itself. sometimes it is better to keep people ignorant... educate them about the consequences first before telling them HOW to do it.

ORIGINAL: DumDog

... it is knowing there is a buyer BEFORE breeding. it is taking in a deposit - which should also be used to pay for the upkeep of that puppy before its ready to go to its new home.
so in my mind, a responsible breeder neither profits NOR loses out on a breeding. it is supplying someone with a dog that already knows they want this dog...

 
Lets see, in 1978 I decided I wanted an Old English Sheepdog.  Researched the breed, made contact with a supplier, gave a deposit, and then waited awhile.  Recognize the steps?  When the puppy was available, the PET SHOP called me up and I picked the dog up. 
 
Look, everything you say is for a small scale operations.  Can not be ractically applied to 65 millions home or the 10 million or whatever the number is that is placed each year.   

ORIGINAL: jenns
One question - Why are we feeding the troll? [&:]

 
Exactly! 

what about entire facilites of working dogs with a full paid staff.
they still do that. every dog is titled, papered, and a worker, either in confirmation or field work. i'm not talking about puppy mills either.
and with spaying and neutering being mandatory for most shelters upond adoption, even before adoption and the breeders supposedly selling the "pet quality" puppies under the condition that it is fixed... why isnt the crisis going down?
i agree with you on some things, but not all things. but thats ok.
i just believe that there IS a way to fix this problem but it wont be a quick enough fix. AND it will require more people agreeing with each other and less snubbing of those that dont follow their example to the letter.

and i really do hate the phrase "breeding for the betterment of the breed" hog wash! people are only "maintaining" the current condition and i dont see it improving at all. not with all the genetic health problems becoming more and more popular.

As one group, there is shared responsibility for the good and the bad. Your view is based on what exist now and there is no compromise or any willingness to change for the betterment of the dog. That is sad.

I'm still not clear on the assumption of collective responsibility.  In my opinion EVERY dog owner and EVERY dog lover has a responsibility to care for EVERY dog that passes under their roof.  If the dog goes on to a new home b/c it was a foster or was bred by a breeder.....whoever it came from is still responsible for that dog.  If I'm correct, you follow up on your fosters just like responsible breeders follow up on their dogs' offspring.  I don't see any "shared" responsibility, I see responsibility, period.  You are either a responsible individual, or you are not.  You always err on the side of caution, for the dog's sake, and that is why responsible rescues and responsible breeders require contracts stating that the owner will return the dog to the rescue or breeder if it doesn't work out.

Why must we force this dichotomy between breeders and everyone else?  Again, the way I see it, it doesn't matter where you got your dog from or what kind it is or whether it's a mutt or pure...a dog is a dog and a person is either acting responsibly on the dog's behalf or they are not.

Responsible breeding is DEFINED by the betterment of the dog, so I have no clue what this statement is supposed to mean with regard to my views on responsible breeding.  The betterment of the dog is the defining purpose of what makes an individual a responsible dog owner/dog lover.  I make no distinctions between a breeder, a pet owner, a dog show professional handler, a trainer, a shelter volunteer....in my mind, EVEYRONE is held to the same standards.

I have no problem with people being against breeding or breeders, but at least be against it for the right reasons.

ORIGINAL: DumDog

what about entire facilites of working dogs with a full paid staff.
they still do that. every dog is titled, papered, and a worker, either in confirmation or field work. i'm not talking about puppy mills either.

Not sure I understand you.

ORIGINAL: DumDog

and with spaying and neutering being mandatory for most shelters upond adoption, even before adoption and the breeders supposedly selling the "pet quality" puppies under the condition that it is fixed... why isnt the crisis going down?

Oh it is working.  Talk to the HSUS and they will tell you of the aggressive campaign for S/N in the Northest States.  Talk to the Denver Dumb Friends league and they will tell you their success.  Talk to PAWS-Chicago and they will tell you they claim that PTS has been reduced by as much as 50% (I think, it was a high number).

ORIGINATOR: DumDog

i agree with you on some things, but not all things. but thats ok.
i just believe that there IS a way to fix this problem but it wont be a quick enough fix. AND it will require more people agreeing with each other and less snubbing of those that dont follow their example to the letter.

Thanks, it is very hard to discuss this subject on this forum.  The topic is usually shut down.  If I don't get feed back from my views based on my experience, then how can my views ever change or be reinforced.   I agree change is slow but it is better that leaving things as status quo. 

DPU, not sure if this is what you're saying, but this is what I'm getting.  That one breeder can't make a difference because he's disagreeing with the other breeder down the road, therefore we're never going to be able to tackle the 65 million pet "demand" cause we're all trying to do it alone.  That's what I'm getting here anyway, in response to that, I have a blurb I"ve seen all over that I always find so touching. 
 
"Saving one pet may not change the world, but it will certainly change the world for that one pet."
 
I know this is meant for rescued pets, but in a way, if I was to breed, I'd go about it with the attitude that I was trying to save the breed or those puppies that I brought into this world and make them more ideal to what the public wants.  I don't breed cause it's too much work!  Plus, I think there's so many great dogs in existence we don't need more, BUT not everyone is turned on by mixed breeds or older dogs, they want the purebred puppy experience.
 
Breeders may never group together to "get it together" the way we'd like cause each person feels that a different aspect of the breed is more important.  Agility owners breed for athleticism and drive, breed ring people will breed for coat or looks, herding will breed for whatever, etc etc.  BUT I think they are improving the breed one litter at a time for what's important to them.  Yes it takes forever to do it, but in their eyes, they're improving the breed, and if it makes the dog more acceptable in the pet home, then I say go for it, cause like you said, that's the demand that's out there.  If there was one standard then we wouldn't get the diversity in the breeds that are essential I feel to their existence. 
 
I think the best way to unite and make a difference, is cutting down on the irresponsible and inexperienced breeders (like OP, lol) instead of worrying about those who are doing what they feel is their best and doing it responsibly. 
 
JMO, and I may be way off base from what you're saying, but like I said, this is what I'm getting from it. 

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma

Have DJ and Pooter considered adoption? 

I don't know--can a same sex dog couple adopt from the shelter?  Do they want a son
or daughter?  A singleton or an entire litter?[sm=rotfl.gif]

I wonder if the OP lit candles and played soft music too

 
I wnted to post that, too, but then I thought the OP might be a child. A child may not realize that two boy dogs cannot have puppies.

I wnted to post that, too, but then I thought the OP might be a child. A child may not realize that two boy dogs cannot have puppies.

 
My 4-year old niece knows that. How can a kid be old enough to find an internet forum and write posts, and not know that you need a penis AND a vagina (not two penises!) to make babies? [&:]

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

I wnted to post that, too, but then I thought the OP might be a child. A child may not realize that two boy dogs cannot have puppies.

My 4-year old niece knows that. How can a kid be old enough to find an internet forum and write posts, and not know that you need a penis AND a vagina (not two penises!) to make babies? [&:]

wow you're blunt, arent ya!?
lol but i agree completely

Have the feeling here that you are yanking all of our chains with a strong pinch collar attached.....If you are savvy enough to go online, savvy enough to join such a group as this....you surely are savvy enough to know that two male dogs cannot have puppies no matter how long you leave them alone together in the dark.  If you have lived with a dog for 9 years, you also probably know, that when it comes to matters of lust, dogs don't care if it is dark or not.....I am sure that you are having a super laugh at everyone else's expense.

should a responsible breeder even WANT to support the demand? that means they are doing it for a profit, either to make themselves feel like champs, or so they can make some money.... which is not being very responcible.. is it?

 
 
     Whats wrong with making a profit on a responsibly bred litter? There IS a demand for certian breeds of dogs & the customers looking for them DESERVE to have a pup that fits the standard, is healthy, sound and a remarkable specimen of the breed. I don't want to see people flocking to BYBs or puppy mills for my breed, or any breed. In the end, the breed looses because those poorly bred representatives outnumber the well bred ones. And the ONLY reason this happens is because of a demand for the breed that is not being supplied by breeders who have good stock. My goal for breeding isn't to meet a demand, if that were the goal I'd have crappy BYB dogs! But I do sell most of my pups to pet homes on a s/n contract and do occasionally breed a litter that I know I will not be keeping pups out of. GASP!!! Yes, I have been known to breed litters without the intent of keeping back a pup! The horror, lol. If there is a demand for the breed, ethical breeders should not be breeding willy nilly, don't get me wrong ... However, we should be making the effort to ensure WE are the ones filling that demand, for the most part.
     Ok, off my soapbox now, lol [sm=soap%20box.gif]