Border collies

I forgot to add that I guess what I was trying to say is that a Border Collie has a lot more working drive than a Toller does and therefore, they just aren't always as content to lay around for a bit. Once I take whatever Tango wants away from her and she loses focus on whatever it was, she's quite content to lay down for a while and relax. Tollers can also be the same way, but I think the main difference is that they are bred for both show and a little bit of working and are losing some of their drive whereas working bred Border Collies live to work (if that makes any sense?). Lol, I didn't mean to make it sound like a Border Collie was always on the go and they don't know how to relax. It's so hard to explain things over the internet sometimes. Hopefully a BC person will see this soon, as I'm also interested in learning a bit more.

Oh I didn't take it that way.  I've seen some very calm BC's on the sidelines but raring to go once in the ring.    Sorry if I didn't relate your explanation well, that whole, internet thing we got goin' here.  lol...  Thanks for clarifying for me.  []

There are 4 different BC's in my classes right now.  Two of which I think of as soft, but ready to work kind of BC's.  They can sit and be calm when not in the ring, though you have to keep them from watching the dog running or they want to join in.  [&:]  Another is new to the family and could be a mix.  He does not seem to have much drive, though it's hard to tell because I think of him as still settling into his home.  The fourth... well she's a 1 year old and her owner has not done much on manners or control.  [8|]

However there is a woman in Indy that has several BC's of various ages and her dogs behave very nicely and were very calm and remained on the sidelines of a training practice in a down without any supervision.  And one was 1-2 years old!  Yet when she ran agility, phhbbtt, you could tell she was a BC!  lol...  So I know it can be done, I just want the BC folks to chime in and discuss this with me.

Never owned one but after watching both BC`s and Aussies at herding trials they both come across as quick and very smart. I love to watch them work the sheep.

I always watch the videos of herding posted by members.  It gives me such a thrill to watch them work like that.

There are different kinds:

Original shepherd's dogs. These dogs have the ability to go all day, but also are perfectly willing to switch it off. The ability to pace drive is as vital as the drive itself, for a real working dog. You can't have a dog burn itself out before two tasks are done for the day (I'll talk about that next). These dogs made BCs a rather popular choice of companion dog among active townsfolk, also, when farmers and shepherds brought their wise, calm dogs into the pubs after a day of work. These townspeople would walk their dogs all over the common areas, over farmland, up the hills, and around town - the main thing for these dogs is just being with you all the time and feeling like they have some purpose in life, even if it's just following a daily routine.

High level competitive herding trial dogs: Some of these dogs' ability to turn it off independently was sacrificed in order to bring home the prizes and improve the breed, as trial dogs need a bit more focus than farm dogs. A good number of these dogs have ended up here in the US over the last few years as it has become more the trial people, than farmers, who have imported dogs. I have one of these here, and it's a constant struggle to remind him to pace himself - he mentally burns himself out on even the smallest, easiest tasks. I had to train him to relax in the house. It took me longer to do this than it took me to do the same for both my puppies that I got at the same time.

Sport bred dogs: Now there is a new breed emerging, dogs who are bred for nothing but go, go, go and no stop. These dogs are frankly horrifying to those of us who understand what a "whole" Border Collie is supposed to be like - it's a bit like deliberately breeding pit bulls who are people aggressive. These dogs range from dogs that can learn to turn off, but you do have to teach them, to dogs with none at all - these dogs spend all their time in the crate when they are not training. Not even a kennel because they'd engage in OCD or self-destructive behaviors given enough space.

Conformation bred dogs. It depends on the stock they come from, what the personality is. Most of them are pretty happy go lucky, about like a cross between a Sheltie and a Golden retriever. Some of them have a lot of the American sport lines crossed in, and some have some British lines crossed in which go back much sooner to working stock. The ones with the American lines are nightmarish and are quickly gaining a bad name. The others are going to make nice pet lines, no doubt about it, if the health of the breed holds up over time (there are some odd and deadly mutations cropping up) and they don't do much more crossing in of American or ISDS (UK) lines.

Sport bred dogs: Now there is a new breed emerging, dogs who are bred for nothing but go, go, go and no stop. These dogs are frankly horrifying to those of us who understand what a "whole" Border Collie is supposed to be like - it's a bit like deliberately breeding pit bulls who are people aggressive.

That's really interesting.  I always had a gut feeling that's what was being done, but that's also the stereotype that's pushed of the BC.  It's always spun like it's just the natural working drive shaped into jumping hurdles and launching balls.  Refreshing to know, but also horribly sad, especially when you end up with those certain dogs that have to be confined outside of training and ring.

Becca you did a very nice job of explaining the differences...  Do you think it's possible to teach the high level herding dog or the sport bred dogs to be calm?  If raised from puppy hood?  The thought of looking for either one of those types is frightening for me because I want a companion too, not just a robot that comes out to do agility.  But one avenue I might pursue is rescue...so you don't always know what you'll get in that route...

Wow, that was really interesting Becca. My aunt recently had a pretty bad accident (backed over by a car) & we're now taking care of her border collie. For some reason, I expected the BC to be just so much wilder and more neurotic than my aussie, though I know the breeds are somewhat comparable. The BC isn't terribly hyper as in running constantly/tackling  people, but she can play ball just about as long as you have the energy to throw the ball. We haven't let her in the house a great deal yet as we have 4 other dogs & she's not housetrained (a whole nother rant there....), but comparing her observed behavior so far to my aussie's, I would guess she could probably settle down just as easily. (As I type this, Bandit is asleep by my feet. *happy sigh*) I'm thankful for the education--it helps dispell a lot of my previous misconceptions. []

Brookcove, would you mind a PM about a specific BC pedigree? I'm curious which group you'd put a certain dog I know into. 

My dogs have no problem, for the most part, when I tell them it's time to stop herding, and they need to come up to the house or inside. Aside from the pitiful 'dying' male I have inside now who lifted his nail today, I have no problems with dogs not being able to switch off after they have been on for a while. And I've had Border Collies my entire life.

I stick to dogs bred specifically for herding, however. I don't delve into show dogs or dogs bred only for dog sports. My dogs could do those dog sports, and not stop, so I see no reason to be breeding dogs that are 'specialized' for it, yet I've had people ask me to breed my dogs to theirs for things like flyball and frisbee, and I just said "they're already what they should be, and they produce what they should produce, good day".

I have two Border Collies, And funny that it should state that some have an "off" switch. My Lady does. She will be active and rearing to go and you can tell her enough and she will settle down. My Misty on the other hand is the ALL day worker. She is  always focused and is insistent on her play time. She will bring her toy and "wait" for you to notice. She is non stop at it all day long. But when she goes to sleep she hears nothing!

They are both in Rally and Conformation events, and are faring quite well. I live in Small Town USA and don't have tons of space for them to run. So I play fetch with them a couple times a day. It helps to burn their energy.

  I have never had a BC but have quite a lot of hands on BC experience. My experience is pretty much what Becca said - the sport/performance bred dogs are the most likely to have "no off switch", along with some of the show bred lines. Some day I will have a BC and without a doubt mine will be from a working breeder. I have known others who are fairly normal, active dogs. I'd suggest reading Susan Garrett's Shaping Success for a glimpse into what performance bred BCs can be like. Buzz was certainly an outstanding agility dog but his over the top drive was actually more of a challenge in training than it was a benefit.

 IME the average working line BCs are plenty driven enough for agility but tend to be a lot more biddable and level headed. The performance bred ones can be a different story and it really would just depend on the individual dog. I have known several experienced trainers who had extremely competitive performance (or show/performance) bred dogs that were not able to live as normal house dogs.

  I've had several different herding breeds and no matter how wild, driven or active they were/are out and about, during play or during training, they have all been good house dogs. I think that is typical of how herding breeds are supposed to be. IMO you are a lot more likely to run into sporting breeds who are always "busy" around the house, destructive and have a hard time turning off the energy.

Muller's Border Collies

I have two Border Collies, And funny that it should state that some have an "off" switch. My Lady does. She will be active and rearing to go and you can tell her enough and she will settle down. My Misty on the other hand is the ALL day worker. She is  always focused and is insistent on her play time. She will bring her toy and "wait" for you to notice. She is non stop at it all day long. But when she goes to sleep she hears nothing!

They are both in Rally and Conformation evnets, and are faring quite well. I live in Small Town USA and don't have tons of space for them to run. So I play fetch with them a couple times a day. It helps to burn thei energy.

This thread is 3 years old... lol

 

This does not happen in border collies alone.  You see it in aussie's (herding bred dogs, the sport dogs and the conformation dogs).  It is noted in one of the belgian varieties to a marked degree when you consider the working verses "show bred" lines.  Folks in belgians tend to have conformation and performance titles with some frequency.  There are of course, some folks who have managed to get close to all of it in a one dog package.... rare, but it happens.

It is odd in some ways that the BCs and aussies stay lean and agile in the dogs that are "job bred" where in malinois the "job bred" dogs are bigger and heavier.