Color Disqualifications

    • Gold Top Dog
    GSDs are the only breed I know about as far as color, and my understanding is that all coat colors and patterns are allowed except white.  White was allowed until not too long ago.  Maybe it's because it just seems weird to have a white police dog or protection dog?  But white shepherds have their very own ring in UKC so they still get to show.  I believe sable is the dominant color pattern, even though people typically think of GSDs as being the traditional black and tan.  I've only been to a few conformation shows in person, but in the GSD rings I have seen really dark sables (a Czech dog), the black and tans, all black, blanket black, lighter sables, etc.  I guess I'm happy that they are all allowed and they are all very common, even if the black and tan is still "preferred".
    • Gold Top Dog
    White would be far far behind on the list of preferred color for ANY type of work where concealment would matter. Think war...military dog....then apply that to the colors favored by K-9 and Military entities. Makes perfect sense. Walking around a war zone, be it urban or jungle setting, with a large white dog is like drawing a target on your back.
    • Gold Top Dog
    White would be far far behind on the list of preferred color for ANY type of work where concealment would matter. Think war...military dog....then apply that to the colors favored by K-9 and Military entities. Makes perfect sense. Walking around a war zone, be it urban or jungle setting, with a large white dog is like drawing a target on your back.


    Yep, I agree.  I honestly don't know why whites are now DQed, but I'm hoping that that ^ is the answer, b/c it makes the most sense, since GSDs are supposed to be versatile and capable of police and protection work, not just herding sheep and guarding flocks.  Do you think visual deterance/looking scary - not just concealment - matters as well?  I mean, c'mon...

    Scary!! (well, not to us....but to JQP)


    Not so much



    • Gold Top Dog
    Absolutely. Many guardian breeds are bred in dark colors with intense eye....the "angel eyes" or tan pips above the eyes of a black and tan dog are even supposed to "mimic" open eyes to make the dog look alert even when asleep.
     
    I am not sure of the TIMING of the disallowment of the color...but if there was a war going on...might make a lot of sense.
     
    UKC is a jungle of weirdness as far as GSD's...there is a separate BREED called the White Shepherd Dog I think...and those are NOT shown with GSD's....but there is a class within GSD's of dogs that are white..that are 'just" GSD"...lol.
    • Gold Top Dog
    UKC is a jungle of weirdness as far as GSD's...there is a separate BREED called the White Shepherd Dog I think...and those are NOT shown with GSD's....but there is a class within GSD's of dogs that are white..that are 'just" GSD"...lol.


    Yeah, that's how it was at the show we went to.  There were GSDs, then White Shepherds.  So the group ring had a GSD and a White Shepherd.  I suppose that's nice for white shepherds b/c now they are only competing against each other and not ALL GSDs (I know, I know, they compete against the standard...not each other, but it's gotta help to be in the ring with less dogs).  It seems weird to have two seperate rings for the same dog, just a different color, but I guess it's like Belgian Tervs, Groenedaals, and Malinois in the AKC...same dog, different color/coat.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I can see definite reasons to try to keep white and merle out of breeds.  The breeders breeding for color seem to me to be only out for a buck.  They sell them as rare and jack up the prices and I never see any real concern for the breed- either conformation or working or health or temperament or anything.  It just seems to be an easy way to halfway do something to make a dollar.  It usually involves heavy inbreeding or crossbreeding (especially in the case of merles) to other breeds, and then selling the pups off as purebred when they are in no way purebred.  The people like the OP who base their line on color are not helping the breed (or dogs) in any way, no matter if you are a working dog person or a show dog person. 

    Color is interesting though.  Papillons started out solid in color, but now have to be piebald.  I guess it was more fashionable?  I don't know.  And people here and especially overseas go all out trying to breed the perfect blaze- straight and thick.  Which eventually results in a large proportion of mismarks.  In the UK you pretty much can't finish a dog that has no blaze.  It seems ridiculous.  All it says in the standard is that if all else is equal, the dog with the blaze is preferred.  How many times is everything structurally the same?  Never...  But many judges won't put up dogs lacking a blaze.  We've finally gotten through that ticking on the legs is no big deal as well.

    Someone tell Rose she doesn't look papillon enough.



    • Gold Top Dog
    Several breeds are divided by color in the ring....American Cockers, CKCS, KCS, Collies, Dobes....some divisions seem standard based, others at the whim of the club putting on the show. Meaning some divisions are standard mandated "varieties" and others more done to help get fewer dogs in the ring at once when big entries are the rule.
     
    Varieties arent always color..size, coat, etc. All relatively minor aspects.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

    Several breeds are divided by color in the ring....American Cockers, CKCS, KCS, Collies, Dobes....some divisions seem standard based, others at the whim of the club putting on the show. Meaning some divisions are standard mandated "varieties" and others more done to help get fewer dogs in the ring at once when big entries are the rule.
     
    Varieties arent always color..size, coat, etc. All relatively minor aspects.

     
    I never understood the color divisions- especially with the cockers...  [&:]
    • Bronze
    It seems that we might be confusing two issues here.  Distaste for the designer breeds, and like any other fashion, what might be considered designer today, might be out of vogue tomorrow leading to alot of puppies without proper homes, and the fact that there is a huge variance worldwide about acceptability of color and markings for differing breeds, and much of the difference is how the animal is used or worked within that culture.  And as has been mentioned, a dog with color disqualification might still be a wonderful companion animal, and might be a whiz at hunting, tracking, agility, obedience, and a therapy dog work...the only restriction is that the animal should probably not be bred.  But from my experience, the animal can compete in all other aspects of AKC competitions aside from conformation.  As I have heard time and again from the various posts on this site, many folks seem to consider conformation as a glorified beauty pageant or popularity contest, and their references to it are somewhat snide anyway, so why should they be upset about disqualifying colorations?  After all, they are not purchasing their dogs with that purpose in mind.  As far as people duping registrations....it happens in every other aspect of life, so why should the dog world and the AKC be exempt from unscrupulous people.  And yes, we try to educate, and we should keep trying in that vein-the proverbial broken record about breed standards, but if an individual truly loves the appearance of the  "merle poodle", then that is what they will seek out and buy, and probably pay way too much for.  So many pet choices are made from emotion and impulse (one of the reasons our pounds and shelters are so overwhelmed) that the decisions people make regarding their pet choices are hardly with the stud book and breed standard in the back pocket.    Those who breed purebreds are trying to retain a sense of the history of the animals by breeding true-even when the actual use and purpose of the breed may no longer be an essential part of society.  I am certainly not going to be able to use my IWs for wolf hunting, not will the Borzoi owners and breeders, but the effort is to keep the history of the breed alive for future generations.  There is probably more leeway in breeds that are still actively being used for working and hunting, because as the duties of the animals evolve and change, so will the animal's overall conformation and perhaps even adjustments in breed standard to reflect that.  There is also the idea of a "hook"-a specific trait or characteristic attributable to certain breeds.  For example, when any of us on this website are asking others to help identify a mixed breed puppy or dog from photos, we are all using the "hooks" we are familiar with, because we aren't able to see the dog's behavior, demeanor, and other traits which might lead to a guess as to the parents lines. 
     
    Not sure at all how I feel about the White Dobies and GSDs, but I do know that part of the problem is that they are not strictly speaking a mutation, but rather a recessive trait which isn't desirable, and that they are wholly and completely unique and different than the problem of albinoism and its attendant other health issues.  I know that the acceptance in Europe is much greater than in our country, and I have known people who have owned both white GSD and white Dobes, and the animals behavior, mannerism, temperment, size etc are all right on the breed standard-they just happen to be white or cream in coloration.  I don't know that I would spend extra for them, nor necessarily even seek them out with an eye to perpetuating that trait, but the shame is that some of these animals are phenomenal breed representatives in terms of how stable, steady, and good tempered they are, and it is a shame to not be able to pass those qualities along to future generations.  Some of these dogs have phenomenal field abilities, and once again, to not encourage those desirable traits due to coloration alone is seemingly wasteful.  If my understanding of the genetic mechanism is correct, to breed the white GSD and Dobes with animals that did not have the recessive at all, would result, by and large in a litter of pretty normal colored animals-eventually the recessive would be extinguished by careful DNA screening and cross breeding.  (Once again though, recessive genes do have a purpose, and do we have the right to extinguish them, and are we any different than the "designer breeders" if we seek to eliminate something that perhaps doesn't occur regularly, but does occur naturally.)
    • Gold Top Dog
    sorry i dont see why white should be disqualified.... even for concealment... hello, isnt snow ..white? wouldnt a big black and tan or sable or all black dog stand out like a sore thumb in an ice field? if AKC ever decides to get their britches on straight they could make a separate ring for white shepherds... like they have for WHITE bull terriers... if there is no genetic health risk then why disqualify? sorry i still see it as someone trying to dictate and/or preserve history.

    and maybe its just been my experience with MANY breeds, not just a select few individuals, that... white is just as scary as sable or fawn. i mean.. a white shepherd looks like a white wolf to me. but if i am a bad guy trying to break the law or participate in a riot... ANY big dog with big teeth is going to make me step back.... be it a GSD or a labrador...
    most people in their right mind wont challenge a dog that is lunging and snapping at them from the end of a leash with a cop on the other end. ask anyone that has been taken down by a police dog if they happened to notice the colour.... and to me... the eyes stand out more on a white dog because dogs eyes are typically dark. the focus seems more intense, and when their mouth is agape the contrast makes the teeth and width of the mouth seem bigger. i think its the contrasting colours that make things seem larger or smaller. like with cars.. a black car seems smaller than a white one even if they are the same make and model.
    in the two comparison photos of the sable and white shepherd all i saw was "Bear looking dog" and "White wolf looking dog" neither one i would want to take on all by myself.

    now about the Alaskan huskies and Siberians... i think it was in the book Snow Walker - by Farley Mowat - or some other related book that said an Alaskan husky is often bred with wolves because the inuit believe the wolf has a better sense of direction and makes the best lead dog - to have a half wolf, or pure wolf for a leader is the best you can get, according to this book.
    but yes Alaskans are mutts. they are mixed with sight hound, labs, newfoundlands, scent hounds, german shepherds, collies, malamutes.... anything thick, woolly, smart and fast. they are a natural dog in many aspects of the word. they were bred and formed by "survival of the fittest" and fashion and looks was far from their creators mind..... they were here before the Siberians... Siberians are what USED to be the Alaskans but as with most registered breeds, have had a set standard, pretty coats, and have been made smaller. the Alaskan was born out of necessity.. they arent typically sought out as pets.

    fromhttp://www.dogbreedinfo.com/alaskanhusky.htm

    Alaskan Huskies are carefully bred to produce the best working dogs possible. The breeding of the Alaskan Husky are planned breedings and are technically pedigreed, however they are not consider pure and are not registered by the AKC or CKC because they are sometimes crossed with other Northern and non-Northern breeds to produce the best working dogs possible.

    http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/huskyalaskansiberian.htm this was interesting as well.

    it seems if you want to compare them to something else.. it would be the difference between using an Arabian horse for cross country and endurance trials and then using a quarter horse for cattle cutting and team penning, as well as barrel racing. similar in origin but different in looks and function. either one could do either job, but there is a preference when it comes to enthusiasts.
    and you could also compare them pit bulls vs am staffs... still same origin but different purposes and functions and both have their followers. one is a show dog and pet while the other is a working dual purpose dog.


    • Gold Top Dog
    sorry i dont see why white should be disqualified

     
    Who is saying that you should? Who/what are you actually arguing with?
     
    LOL....
     
    I posted my thoughts on reasons the color might not be FAVORED. It is up to the caretakers of that breed...and the parent club to make decisions as to standard/disqualifications...nothing to do with registries. If the bulk of thier membership wanted different they'd do it differently. Not really up to those outside a breed to dictate what should happen within it IMO.
    • Gold Top Dog
    i'm not arguing, also stating my own opinion and theories.
    the breed clubs are under the registries and the they sanctions this or that and they employ the judge who picks the winner who sets the example that people want to follow because he attracted the attention.

    the same with whippets and other sight hounds. there were once long haired, smooth coats, wire coats, any coat a dog could have that was known and well documented to the whippet. these were functional coats (warm, protection etc) these dogs were competed against in local rabbit hunts (lure coursing nowadays) but when the show rings popped up the wirey and long haired dogs soon lost favour for asthetic purposes. now when someone starts to revive that once popular and useful coat... they are accused of breeding non-standard dogs for a profit and trying to ruin the dogs.... of course some of the people that say this dont know the history of these breeds so you can hardly blame them for assuming the worst.

    so far i havent seen any real answers as to why white shepherds were disqualified. i have seen a lot of theories but havent seen any facts as to why they lost favour when they once were allowed... so i guess i'll have to look it up for myself.
    • Gold Top Dog
    so far i havent seen any real answers as to why white shepherds were disqualified.

     
    You want a definative "real" answer, on something likely decided upon by a large grouping of fanciers via vote...long ago?
    Here...from one of us? [sm=asking03.gif]  
     
    Perhaps dropping an email to the parent club would be a good place to ask.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I can't speak for other breeds but in regards to Boston Terriers, dogs that are red/brown/fawn/blue/grey are a disqualification in the show ring. Dogs with all white bodies were shown in the past and can be shown but only if it has excellent conformation otherwise although I highly doubt it would get far in the ring. The reason white's not preferable is because it has been linked to deafness. The other colors aren't desireable because expression is a big part of the breed. The dog is supposed to look like it's wearing a tuxedo and it should have dark eyes and dark nose. Dogs of lighter colors usually have green or blue eyes and light colored noses and that takes away from the expression of the dog. The Boston Terrier Club of America revised their standard in 1914 to disqualify these colors and the last revision was done in 1990 to clarify things. The Boston Terrier Club of America is working on another revision and based on what several members have told me, they are going to make sure they really work on the color faults to make it even more clearer that red/fawn/brown/grey/blue will not be allowed. This is a big issue in the breed, because a lot of irresponsible folks are breeding for these colors, and the BTCA has made it clear as to why these colors won't be allowed. I've often said that if people want these colors recognized where they can show them in conformation, their best bet is to create a separate breed like the White GSD folks did. They'll have a much easier time doing that then trying to convince the BTCA to allow these colors.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

    so far i havent seen any real answers as to why white shepherds were disqualified.

     
    You want a definative "real" answer, on something likely decided upon by a large grouping of fanciers via vote...long ago?
    Here...from one of us? [sm=asking03.gif]  
     
    Perhaps dropping an email to the parent club would be a good place to ask.


    if its known to most GSD people when it happened then i'm sure there would be a documented reason why. obvious that albinism is a genetic disqualification,, but white shepherds arent albino.. they werent out crosses either.. so i'm simply confused why the prejudice against them.