Hey GSD people!

Also, is there a difference in temperment between males and females?  I'm leaning towards a female, if we get one, since we already have two male (neutered) dogs.

The only difference I've noticed is that bitches can be...bitchier.
 
Females (IME and I've had females all my life with the exception of my two current boys) seem terribly independent and "Why should I?" whereas the boys are like "I'll do anything for youuuu, any thing you ask me toooooo!"
 

Speaking of temperment, what is the difference in temperment between the different lines?  I have no problem being the leader but I don't want a dog that is going to constantly challenge me for that position.  That's exhausting.

We call those dogs "Rank dogs" as they are constantly challenging for a higher position in the pack and are not content where they are.  These dogs are honestly few and far between.  Every now and again one will crop up, but there are very few dogs that are "Rank" dogs.  Some are just being jerks because their people aren't stepping up the leadership.
 
I personally disagree with the statement about the West German dog.  People think these guys are the Golden Middle because they show and they have a working requirement, but the primary focus of the majority of West German showline breeders...is to show.  Some of the dogs just barely squeak by in their evaluations (let's not even talk about midnight trials).
 
You have to be careful in ANY of the lines, and decide what is your primary concern.
 
The American dogs have a tendency to be more spooky as they do not undergo the rigorous testing that any of the German dogs do.  Honestly, I'd rather have a West German dog that has some modicum of stability as opposed to one who is just plain insane, but in the grand scheme of things, I expect stability all around.
 
Generally American lines are soft in temperament and there's no avoiding it because they've just been bred to whatever here in the states.  The West Germans are a bit tougher but can still be neurotic (those midnight trials I was talking about).  The East German dogs can be VERY prey driven (so much so you could cry and don't even want to leave your cat unattended for 3 seconds with it), and the Czech dogs can be low in prey drive, but highly defensive.
 
Finding the proper balance is the trick.

Xeph, you ever wonder what happened to the breeding program of the Czech and DDR dogs during the iron curtain years? The Russians were in control and some not so savory things were going on, even with their own athletes.........makes on wonder.......

 "The West Germans are a bit tougher but can still be neurotic (those midnight trials I was talking about)."
 
Xeph, How many do you know and have worked with? Much of the debate on some of the other boards turns into us and them. If you look back in the pedigree`s you`ll see some foundation kennels that show up in both lines. What do you base the "neurotic" on? Personal experience or what was said on a board?
I`ve had the opportunity to see a lot of the dogs from a number of the breeders on the other boards and with out naming names some didn`t live up to my expectations as serious working dogs. Probably my favorite though is Maggieroselee`s Bretta from Wildhaus. She`s a gorgeous sable with a super personality and solid nerves. Fun to watch in agility.
 
As for gender........I`m 53 and have had GSD`s all my life yet had only one female. She is one of my current 3dogs and she is my last female. There is just something about her independent personality that after a lifetime of male dogs I can`t get used to.
 
Solid temperament. Gage can do what he wants and they know not to react:
  

ORIGINAL: Xeph

The only difference I've noticed is that bitches can be...bitchier.

Females (IME and I've had females all my life with the exception of my two current boys) seem terribly independent and "Why should I?" whereas the boys are like "I'll do anything for youuuu, any thing you ask me toooooo!"

 
I'm very glad you told me that little bit of info.  I would have kept leaning towards the females but that changes things.  I love an "I'll do anything for you" attitude.  That's what I'm looking for!  I guess one more male in the mix would be o.k. as long as everyone is neutered and taught to mind their manners.
 

ORIGINAL: Xeph

Generally American lines are soft in temperament and there's no avoiding it because they've just been bred to whatever here in the states.  The West Germans are a bit tougher but can still be neurotic (those midnight trials I was talking about).  The East German dogs can be VERY prey driven (so much so you could cry and don't even want to leave your cat unattended for 3 seconds with it), and the Czech dogs can be low in prey drive, but highly defensive.

 
O.K. so it sounds like maybe I should steer clear from Czech dogs because they have a little more aggression and I need to definately rule out the East Germans because I definately don't want a dog with a high prey drive.  We have two cats, one of which has been attacked twice by dogs.  One attack landed her in the clinic for stitches and little R&R.  We also have lots of critters passing through our property.  Our Lab came across a fawn just a few weeks while he was exploring.  It ran so he started to run but stopped as soon as my husband told him to sit.  A dog with a high prey drive probably would have killed it.
 
It sounds like a West German dog would be a better choice.  I don't know about American dogs.  I would have to really research them.  I don't feel confident in some of the American breeding practices.  I know there are good breeders here but finding them is hard.  I actually live very, very close to the same town as a very well known GSD handler.  I've seen him on t.v. at Westminster and I see him sometimes at the Atlanta shows.  I don't know if it's appropriate to mention his name here though.  I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.  I don't know if he could recommend anyone or if he is someone I should even go to for information.
 
So if I did decide on a West German dog or some other non-American line, how do I find one?  Are their people here in the States I could go to or do you have to import one?  I know a tiny little bit about importing horses.  I used to work for a lady that imported Dutch Warmbloods.  I know it's not cheap and quite a hassle.
 
Can you recommend any good GSD websites and books?

"It ran so he started to run but stopped as soon as my husband told him to sit.  A dog with a high prey drive probably would have killed it."
 
An out of control dog without training. If that were true how would a K9 officer call off a patrol dog? 

I think I'll just limit myself to the shedding question........
 
On a scale of 1-10, well, depends on the time of year.  3 most of the time, 15 when they are blowing coat.  My dogs come from 3 entirely different lines yet I know a fair amount about even the foster pups who found their forever home with me.  When they blow coat, wowza!  But, I have six gsds so I'm likely a bit non-typical.
 
Of the six I have three distinct coat types.  Thor, Thunder, Tyler and Shadow are pretty "normal".  Theo has a really dense coat and Sheba has a really fine undercoat, which may have something to do with the fact that she is white.  She is far softer than any of the others.  Theo needs daily brushing, the other boys every 2-3 days and Sheba, maybe once a week.
 
So long as you are willing to commit to a reasonable grooming schedule, there should NEVER be fur flying off when you pet a dog of any breed.  Even when mine are blowing coat and tufting like crazy, you don't see flying fur.  Its all in a commited grooming schedule.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I think I'll just limit myself to the shedding question........

On a scale of 1-10, well, depends on the time of year.  3 most of the time, 15 when they are blowing coat.  My dogs come from 3 entirely different lines yet I know a fair amount about even the foster pups who found their forever home with me.  When they blow coat, wowza!  But, I have six gsds so I'm likely a bit non-typical.

Of the six I have three distinct coat types.  Thor, Thunder, Tyler and Shadow are pretty "normal".  Theo has a really dense coat and Sheba has a really fine undercoat, which may have something to do with the fact that she is white.  She is far softer than any of the others.  Theo needs daily brushing, the other boys every 2-3 days and Sheba, maybe once a week.

So long as you are willing to commit to a reasonable grooming schedule, there should NEVER be fur flying off when you pet a dog of any breed.  Even when mine are blowing coat and tufting like crazy, you don't see flying fur.  Its all in a commited grooming schedule.

 
So far, it sounds like the shedding is not as bad as I imagined.  I brush my Sheltie once a week and he goes to a groomer every other month for a good, professional brushing along with his bath and other fun stuff.  I'm guessing a GSD would be about the same, more or less and depending on it's coat type, but on a larger scale.

ORIGINAL: hdkutz

"It ran so he started to run but stopped as soon as my husband told him to sit.  A dog with a high prey drive probably would have killed it."

An out of control dog without training. If that were true how would a K9 officer call off a patrol dog? 

 
Maybe I haven't had enough coffee this morning but I'm not sure I understand your comment.
 
Our Lab is trained and that's why he stopped and sat in a dime when my husband told him to.  I was just using this incident to point out that a dog with a much higher prey drive than our Lab's (& yes, less training & control, if that's what you're getting at) could have possibly attacked and killed the fawn.  A dog with a high prey drive is alot harder to control, regardless of training, which is why I don't want one.  I apologize if I was unclear on the point I was trying to make.

Here is Kord, the spastic puppy and a picture of my old girl Babe. German Show lines. Babe, she was a sweetheart, this boy...well let's say boys will be boys! They have common lines spaced in their pedigress's. They were born 11 years apart.
 
Babe was a plush and required more grooming, Kord can get by with a brushing once a week if pressed, but I am NOT looking forward to him blowing this coat in the fall. I feed him a higher grade of food then I did Babe, also in the last few years of her life health played a bigger factor in her coat. Attitude is what you get out of it, Babe was an affectionate velcro dog, Kord is a velcro dog but is very skimpy on the affection. I would take time and visit breeders and look at dogs.
 
Babe, the summer before she passed and doing her favorite sport, people watching.

 
Kord: Face and body shot


 
Good luck!
 

OH my! I love that first pic of Kord (well, any pic of him for that matter) he is stunning!
 
FWIW, i have a friend who has a sheltie and she definitely sheds worse than my GSD.

Xeph, you ever wonder what happened to the breeding program of the Czech and DDR dogs during the iron curtain years? The Russians were in control and some not so savory things were going on, even with their own athletes.........makes on wonder.......

I concur.  The Shepherds then were....well, we'll not talk about the Czech Shepherds then xD
 

Xeph, How many do you know and have worked with?

Quite a few.  There is a surprisingly large number of West German showlines that train with my schutzhund group, Strauss being one of em.
 

Much of the debate on some of the other boards turns into us and them. If you look back in the pedigree`s you`ll see some foundation kennels that show up in both lines. What do you base the "neurotic" on? Personal experience or what was said on a board?

Personal experience.  And I'm not saying ALL showlines are this way, certainly not.  I'm saying that when the primary focus is showing, temperament in general tends to be lacking, though this is not always true.  For example, the TeMar and Mittelwest dogs I've met have been very balanced in drive with impeccable temperament.  And you're right, Bretta is one awesome dog xD  But then, Chris Wild breeds some great stuff.
 

There is just something about her independent personality that after a lifetime of male dogs I can`t get used to.

Hah!  So it's not just me that thinks that!!  I find that streak to be wholly obnoxious, lol, but I deal with it when I have to.
 

O.K. so it sounds like maybe I should steer clear from Czech dogs because they have a little more aggression and I need to definately rule out the East Germans because I definately don't want a dog with a high prey drive.

Perhaps.  Owning a GSD, a GSD of ANY line, is all about awareness.  You need to be aware of what your dog is and isn't, and what he does and doesn't like to do.  You can get a dog with high prey drive in any line, but admittedly, the zippy little alligators tend to be more in the East German dogs.  I've learned that lots (most?) of the best/top SchH dogs....are prey only dogs.  Very little defense.  So that's what's bred.  Doesn't mean it's RIGHT, that's just what it IS.  There are extremes in all lines.  Extremes in angulation, extremes in topline, extremes in drive.
 

A dog with a high prey drive probably would have killed it.

Prey drive is prey drive.  It's actually pretty neutral.  My dog has a high prey drive himself....he's ALWAYS focused on something that's moving.  However, if I call him off what he's chasing, he comes back.
 
High prey drive does not = out of control.  The dog is only out of control if you let him be.  You just have to train him to call off of anything (and it's not easy....I had to go to an e-collar to quit Strauss from crittering rabbits).  From a young age he learned that we DO NOT eat mommy's cats!  But, sometimes that drive gets the better of him, and he gets "that look".  I've caught him picking UP my Siamese on more than one ocassion.  He never bit her, but he did carry her around (until she smacked him a good one).
 
He'll quiver when the cats run through the house, because he knows he can't be chasing them.  Just the same....

They can be taught xD
 

 I've seen him on t.v. at Westminster and I see him sometimes at the Atlanta shows.  I don't know if it's appropriate to mention his name here though.  I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.  I don't know if he could recommend anyone or if he is someone I should even go to for information.

Ahhhh, one Mister James "Jimmy" Moses.  I do believe he's going to be retiring soon (His knees aren't so good anymore).  He's got some nice dogs.  Not my cup of tea, but they are nice.

A dog with a high prey drive is alot harder to control, regardless of training, which is why I don't want one.

Well that depends on how you look at it.  When I first got Strauss I had NO idea how to control that drive.  I cried.  A lot.  But eventually I was taught how to harness that drive in my dog, and WOWZA can I use it to my advantage!  A Prey driven dog can be difficult in teaching call offs, but when you know how to use it, it can be a godsend.
 
I use Strauss' prey drive to get him "up" and ready for obedience, otherwise he can be really flat.  If he sees Chuckie, or Tuggy, or anything I can chuck or wiggle around, he's all ears and eyes.  It's also a great reward (tuggy) because I can zip it around and watch him bounce for it and work out some frustration   Prey drive also makes it easier for me to send my dog places, because I can use moving targets and teach him to go away from me.  A dog with little prey drive isn't interested in things that move, and thus, getting them to move OUT can be difficult, because they see no reason to chase after it.
 
Prey drive has advantages and disadvantages   I personally love my prey driven monster xD
 
I love Kord xD  What kennel is he from?

ORIGINAL: Shelties4me

ORIGINAL: hdkutz

"It ran so he started to run but stopped as soon as my husband told him to sit.  A dog with a high prey drive probably would have killed it."

An out of control dog without training. If that were true how would a K9 officer call off a patrol dog? 

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee this morning but I'm not sure I understand your comment.

Our Lab is trained and that's why he stopped and sat in a dime when my husband told him to.  I was just using this incident to point out that a dog with a much higher prey drive than our Lab's (& yes, less training & control, if that's what you're getting at) could have possibly attacked and killed the fawn.  A dog with a high prey drive is alot harder to control, regardless of training, which is why I don't want one.  I apologize if I was unclear on the point I was trying to make.

 
That`s my point. A strong prey drive doesn`t mean unmanageable. Working K9`s have a strong prey drive yet can be controlled.

Kord is from Drachefeld Kennels in Winchester Kentucky. Charlie Starr is his breeder.
 
Tru

ORIGINAL: hdkutz


That`s my point. A strong prey drive doesn`t mean unmanageable. Working K9`s have a strong prey drive yet can be controlled.

 
Okay, now I understand what you're saying....and what Xeph is saying as well.  And I agree!  I certainly can see how strong prey drive would be beneficial in the kind of competition you guys do.  It's the same with my husband's hunting dogs.  They wouldn't be very good hunting dogs if they didn't have a strong prey drive.  I guess if I do get a GSD, I'd prefer one with a little lower drive.  I don't want to have to stay on top of it all the time about not chasing my cats.  My sisters Dachshund and Bassett cross both do that and it's extremely annoying to have to constantly police them not to mention unpleasant for the poor cats.  Our dogs will give a short chase to a cat that runs but as soon as it stops, they stop and give it a friendly wag and sniff.  My Sheltie might occasionally bark at it a little just for the heck of it.  They wouldn't dare hurt one.
 
I have no plans to compete the dog in any competition.  I would love to be involved in competitions but it's a big commitment and I just don't have the extra time.  My GSD's job would be farm dog.  Loyal companion and deterrent.

I have no plans to compete the dog in any competition. I would love to be involved in competitions but it's a big commitment and I just don't have the extra time. My GSD's job would be farm dog. Loyal companion and deterrent.

I don't either, Kord is first and formost our pet and companion. We might build some agility equipment to channel his energy or I might join a club here in town that already has it, but it would not be for competion it would be to keep my dog happy, healthy and in shape.

Tru