Are there any new breeds being developed?

    • Gold Top Dog
    I do know that there are incidence of deafness in mostly white lemon colored setters.  In the old days, white boxer pups would be euthanized because of deafness and color related problems.  It's really interesting hopw genetics are all linked together.  It jus proves that you have to know what you are doing before you decided to breed some dogs. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Liesje

    DumDog, I know nothing about dog genetics either, but maybe the genes for certain colors also carry genetic problems?  For example, a pure white cat with normal colored eyes, while very rare and desireable to some, will likely be deaf.  Maybe the same type of thing is true for dogs?

     
    In Boston Terriers, the more white there is on the dog especially on the head, the higher the chances are that it's deaf. A lot of irresponsible breeders strive to breed for white Bostons so they can sell them as "rare" for an insane amount of money and a lot of uneducated people believe that and are devastated a few months down the road when they discover they have a deaf dog and they usually do not get any recourse from the breeder.
    • Gold Top Dog
    just curious, since we are talking about colours and breeds.... i read in the American Classifieds today, while waiting for my food at Hardees, someone was advertising AKC White Doberman puppies. [:-] Well. i had my husband's cell phone and i was REALLY tempted to call them just to see these puppies. the add would lead you to believe these are white as in .... white GSD... not ALBINO! did i miss something? are people actually breeding white dobies on purpose? i dont see why they couldnt be white if they have grey hound in their back ground, but really... i thought the white in a dobie was a recessive albinism gene? you know.. like a genetic "oops!"?

    and below that add there were "RARE Black Pug puppies"  are they that rare? i see quite a few of them around and about.... [sm=asking03.gif]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Gosh - just out of curiousity I looked up "White Doberman Pincher".  Here's the lowdown:

    In 1976, a "white" Doberman Pinscher bitch was born,[linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobermann#_note-DPCA-albino][4][/link] and was subsequently bred to her son, who was also bred to his litter sisters. This tight inbreeding continued for some time to allow the breeders to "fix" the mutation, which has been widely marketed. Doberman Pinschers of this color possess a genetic [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation]mutation[/link], which prevents its pigment proteins from being manufactured, regardless of the [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotypes]genotypes[/link] of either of the two color genes; that is, it is an [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albino]albino[/link]. Though some potential Doberman Pinscher owners find the color attractive, albino Doberman Pinschers, like albinos of other species, face increased risk of [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer]cancer[/link] and other diseases and because of this and because of abnormal development of the [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina]retina[/link], should avoid sun exposure as much as possible. The popularity of the "white" Doberman Pinscher has decreased dramatically as these risks have become known, with many people have called for an end to the breeding and marketing of the white Doberman Pinscher because they perceive it as cruelty to the animal. Some countries have made the purposeful breeding of the white Doberman illegal, but breeders who care and take note of the ancestors can avoid breeding albinos as they are all descended from the original female. A list of every descendent of the original albino-producing dogs is available so that breeders can avoid producing this mutant dog.[linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobermann#_note-Z-list][5][/link] The [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Kennel_Club]American Kennel Club[/link] registers albino Doberman Pinschers but disqualifies them from [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformation_show]conformation shows[/link], and the Doberman Pinscher Club of America has actively worked to discourage breeding to obtain albino Doberman Pinschers.[linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobermann#_note-DPCA-committee][6][/link]
    [sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]

    Not a good thing.

    I think that the black pug is kind of rare and really has been around for awhile, like the black boxer. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    AArrgg!  Let me try this again:

    Here's a photo:


    • Gold Top Dog
    thanks for the article there. i didnt know about that.i thought it was just an anomoly that happened occasionally. didnt know it was all from ONE bitch being inbred.. whoa.

    so... how did white shepherds happen? outcrossing with something else? white dogs are hard to keep white because white being so recessive.. true American Bulldogs should be predominantly white and you can tell the ones with a lot of outcrossing by how much colour they have on them.
    • Gold Top Dog
    There are a lot of White German Shepherd kennels.  I have a friend who loves them and have had several.  I've had the misconception (I guess) that they could be of a little unstable  temperment.  His shepherds were great, but that might have been a reflection of his own personality (great guy).

    Here's a little information about the WGSD:


    The color white was made a disqualification in the GSD Breed Standard by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America almost thirty years ago.   Up until that time, the white coated German Shepherd Dog was eligible to compete in conformation classes the same as the black, black and tan, and sable colors.  White German Shepherd dogs are still eligible to be registered with the American Kennel Club and Canadian Kennel Club; however, due to the color disqualification, these dogs can no longer be shown in the conformation breed ring.  Owners can show white dogs in AKC sanctioned obedience, tracking and herding trials. Also the White German Shepherd is allowed to show in most rare breed shows and to earn conformation titles with several independent kennel clubs.  The United Kennel Club does allow the White Shepherd to compete in conformation.  Also, the American White Shepherd Association holds shows for White Shepherds only and provides an AWSA Championship title. The White Shepherd Club of Canada holds shows for White Shepherds and provides a WSCC Championship title.


    Color genetics are really interesting.  I guess to be really responsible breeder, you have to be educated about this stuff. 

    Have you ever read what can happen if you breed two merles together.  Ye Gads!
    • Gold Top Dog
    well THAT made no sense what so ever. so they could compete in conformation at one time but suddenly they were booted out? why?

    and i agree about the genetics. i believe in order to be a good breeder you must have knowledge of genetics.
    i'm learning all that i can, and it started quite by accident when i found an add for Long Haired Whippets in the BIG issue of DogsUSA. inside their website they have a ton of information about genetics and breeding and my interest for it snowballed from there. i only wish i had paid more attention to that part of science and biology when i was in high school.

    and no, what happens if you cross two merles?
    • Gold Top Dog
    well THAT made no sense what so ever. so they could compete in conformation at one time but suddenly they were booted out? why?

     
    The German Shepherd club changed the standard. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    and no, what happens if you cross two merles?

     
    You can get what is called a double merle or homozygous merle.  This is a dog that is prone to genetic flaws.  It could be born blind, deaf or even without eyes.
     
     
    See: [linkhttp://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Merle.html]http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Merle.html[/link]
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    There's four ways a dog can be white (I think only four):

    Dominant white color. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, except white wolves and foxes. This color is dominant, but contrary to what you'd think, it's very rare therefore, because you have to breed for it every generation, pretty much (I think only some of the wild greys will express over white). If a dog is solid white and bred to a solid white dog, and sometimes gets solid colored pups in the litter, then that's true dominant white.

    Albinism. Very rare, and very unhealthy. If I'm not mistaken it's a recessive mutation. I could be wrong about that.

    Hyperextension of white spotting. This is where the white markings on a dog are extended literally all over the body. Often there is ticking or spotting that appears, that indicates the color that is carried on the pigmentation locus (black or liver). Examples, ACD, Dalmations. When these dogs are bred, they produce variations on the spotting - masks, blotches of color, and can even produce very colored dogs with some points of white. The more you breed pattern white to pattern white, on the other hand the further the white spreads, until you start losing pigmentation in key areas such as the inner ear and around the eyes. Hence the deafness issues in ACDs, Dals, and probably JRTs. Any dog with pattern white faces this risk if the white is overdone.

    Double merle. Merle is a dominant modifier which is "lethal" when the pups inherit two alleles. Thus, when two merles are bred together, some of the pups will inherit the allele for the merle modifier from both parents. Inheriting two alleles (homozygous merle) highly increases the risk for unviability, deformity, and stunted cerebral and neural development (including eye and ear problems). These pups are sometimes called "lethal white", but that's a misnomer because they are actually just very pale in pigmentation.

    The last three types of white all increase the risk of health problems in dogs, for reasons that are not really well understood at the moment. Pigmentation seems to be linked to in utero development of a great deal of neural tissues, but we don't know much more beyond that.

    To Dumdogs: It's easier to think of color when you break it down by locus: There's the main pigmentation which determines whether the base pigment of the dog, as expressed in the nose leather and eye rims, will be black or liver. Black "covers" liver, so when the allele for it is present, it's dominant. There's another locus for yellow, the E locus. When either allele is "turned on", the dog will be some variant of the E yellow. That's yellow like a lab, or a Golden retriever, or the red color of an Irish Setter (Llwellens are bb liver colored).

    Then there's the white locus, which is again dominant, the agouti locus, which controls banding on the hair, so that brindles have banding "turned on" and have the brindle modifier, and sables have banding "turned on" and the sable modifier. Finally there's the white spotting locus.

    Then there's a ton of modifiers like tri, ticking, brindle, sable, merle, dilution, and many more pattern alleles that shape how all those are expressed. The modifiers act on different loci - merle MM/Mm and dilution dd only act on E and B, while brindle and sable only acts on A (we think). So you could have a sable dog that is merle, but the only place you'd see the merle is where the B/b pigmentation is expressed, and in a sable dog that's only one band of three. This is why sable merle is a very probematic color.

    This is a breakdown of the easy colors. Primitive breeds and feral dogs, as well as wolflike dogs such as huskies, make my head explode.

    A "silver" lab is bb liver colored, with the recessive dilution allele. Genotype bbdd (remember the liver color is recessive and therefore a liver colored dog is homozygous). A "blue" pitbull would be BBdd or Bbdd - remember B black is dominant and so we wouldn't know whether the dog also carried a liver b allele unless/until the dog produced a liver pup.

    Thus, to come back to the original question (was there one? Oh, yes . . .[:D]) - it would be quite unwise to breed "for" such a rare color, since both the liver base color and the dilute gene are recessives. The only way to increase the occurence of the combination in the gene pool would be through some really heavy duty inbreeding. Not a good idea, for the sake of mere fancy. I can't think of a faster way to find some really nasty additional recessive mutations and "fix" them in the gene pool. HYPP anyone?

    HEre is a web site that is probably the clearest and best-presented discussion of color that I've seen on the web: http://www.ashgi.org/color/

    • Gold Top Dog
    wow, brookcove.. i need to talk to you more often! i want to learn as much about this as i can.. so i must ask, are you self taught or did you pay more attention in school lol seriously though.. all this stuff is a major factor in breeding, especially for those ballsy enough to attempt "creating" a new breed.... and personally i find it fascinating. and it applies to more than just dogs. i was talking to someone about manx cats and she totally lost me on all the genetic stuff .. good thing it was in a forum and not a face to face conversation. and then... did you know horses have a brindle gene too?http://members.aol.com/l3l13/hist-ref-def/index.htm


    my main concern is my own breed of course, but then again... we have our variations too with the Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog and the Cattahoula Bulldog (theres a difference but i think it has more to do with old out crosses breeding true totype and newer outcrosses) but they all look like bulldogs.
     In the paper i was reading yesterday, along with the White Dobies and Black Pugs, someone was also selling BLUE EYED American Bulldogs! i know its not a fault but i've never heard of it before in ABs.... so of course i'm interested, not that i can afford to go out and buy one just because it has blue eyes... but i was still tempted to call them and ask questions. the other thing that interests me is the brindling. supposedly if you breed a dark brindle to another dark brindle you get black.. or i think thats how it goes.

    and i still dont understand the thing about white shepherds. why change the standard? or did someone cross the breed with something else to get whites? i met a guy that bred white GSDs with sables, he said to remove the roach back monstrocity. all his dogs had mile long paperwork on their health and background. i met a couple of the puppies and saw pictures of their parents. they werent bad looking dogs really, but is that common, to cross the whites to the other GSDs? and if you do, does that mean the white is canceled out or does it appear randomly in the litter like.. yellow and chocolate labs?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Becca, you never cease to amaze me, girl! [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]  Although, Dumdog, you'r not so dumb yourself.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I am not super savvy on brindle since it's fairly rare in the BC, but here's what I understand. It's another one of the banded hair patterns. The bands of color are always cream/grey, tan, and B/b pigment (liver or black). So, there's three loci that directly affect it, in simplest terms - the one that affects the body color band, the one that switches the banding on or off, and an extension that determines the pattern. There are probably others that affect the patterns further. In brindle, there are wide bands of B/b color and tan, with the two switching off being dominant on the hair, which produces the stripes.

    A dog with a whole lot of black and not much visible tiger striping, simply has lots of area where the black (Bb or BB) is dominant in the pigmentation of each hair. Many dominant traits tend to magnify when combined in each generation (pattern white bred to pattern white will produce pups with more extreme white patterns, for instance), so there's probably a modifier which controls this characteristic of the brindling. It's just a guess.

    I just read a lot. [:D] I'm highly interested in genetics though I don't forsee ever being a breeder. But it's partly because of my amateur study of genetics that has convinced me to steer clear of breeding and leave it to the old hands.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Becca, you never cease to amaze me, girl!   Although, Dumdog, you'r not so dumb yourself.
    dont tell anyone.. i like to lead people into a false sense of security [:D]


    it's partly because of my amateur study of genetics that has convinced me to steer clear of breeding and leave it to the old hands.

    yeah its nothing to tamper with, and jeez.. keeping up with all that stuff could make your head spin!
    i've been considering finding someone to mentour me with the AB breed, but i dont know how many of these rednecks
    out here have a clue about this stuff. i would rather work with someone in person, but i'll probably have to find a mentour online.... if i ever decide to undertake dog breeding then i want to be as profesional as possible about it... but that will probably happen after i get back into college and i foresee a lot of courses in genetics....