Are there any new breeds being developed?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Are there any new breeds being developed?

    I was thinking, last night at 2:00 a.m.Angry, about all the different breeds that were combined to make my English pointer.  It seems that years ago, people would breed exceptional individuals from breeds that had attributes that the person wanted in the final offspring and come up with a new breed. Most current breeds are really combinations of  breeding stock from several breeds.[&:] 

    Is this being done, at all, any more?  Or would it be considered the development of a "designer dog".  Are some of the designer dog people really trying to develope a better dog instead of just riding on the "designer dog" trend thats going on now and making lots of money?  [8|]

    I know that in horse breeding, they will add an individual from another breed into the breeding program to improve or enhance certain qualities.  Especially the warm-bloods.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I "think' some of the Labradoodle folks are using up to 3-4 breeds now and have drawn up a standard, etc.
    Maybe some of the other Bulldog breeds as well?
     
    I looked at the FSS area in AKC....lots of breeds now...sheesh...not all are new or even sorta new...some are ancient...
    Not all the breeds here will be recognized and I'd wager in many there are division of people who don't want then there...
    [linkhttp://www.akc.org/breeds/fss_breeds.cfm]http://www.akc.org/breeds/fss_breeds.cfm[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Today I was reading about the development of the gun dogs in general.  In the article, it was said that the Spanish Pointer is the foundation of gun dogs from the hound end (where the hounds converge into bird dogs) and the poodle or the spanish water dog are the foundation from the herding dog end.  Very interesting. 

    I also heard that the Chinese Crested dog has bad teeth with shallow roots because of the gene that makes it hairless. 

    This makes me wonder if dog fanciers are trying to improve their specific breeds or just trying to make them....fancier.  The Egyptian Arab horse comes to mind.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Actually, yeah- there are some new breeds around. The two I know the most about are the Silken Windhound (a small, whippet-sized sighthound with a lovely silky coat, derived from Borzoi and whippets, which has been around for about 25 years, I believe now, and breeds fairly true, although they're still messing with the size. This breed has it's own breed club and registry) and the Alaskan Klee Kai (a miniature Alaskan (not Siberian) husky breed which is around 30 years old, and is now UKC recognized.)

    Pwca
    • Gold Top Dog
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    • Gold Top Dog
    Well, since MOST Sibes are just companions, and not working dogs at this point, I don't particularly see anything wrong with developing a version with the looks and not the drive or size. The breed is well controlled by responsible breeders, and would make a better pet for some folks that would otherwise want sibes or mals, and in the long run, that's not a bad thing. I think the difference between THIS toy/companion breed and a 'designer mutt' is that the klee kai breeds fairly true, is almost exclusively bred by responsible breeders, and isn't an F1 cross- I believe it's been bred within the breed for quite a long time. I *do* think it's got a really shallow gene pool, and I don't particularly like their temperaments (shy, a bit standoffish- schipperke was used in the development of the breed for reasons I'm not entirely clear on and their temperaments seem to be similar- I looked into AKKs very seriously before getting my first Cardi). But they're health testing for everything in general, placing carefully.... And I don' thtink we can say 'it doesn't work, we shouldn't breed it', because unfortunately, working dogs are the tiny minority in modern dogs anyway. The Silken is just as much a companion breed- yes, you can course them, but you could do weight pull in the small classes with an AKK. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    The gene responsible for hairlessness is one that has some morbid effects. It is lethal when homozygous (when the embryo inherits two alleles) but these pups simply aren't born. The hairless gene can also cause underdeveloped ear canals and eye tissue, and is also implicated, of course, in the eternal bad skin problems most hairless dogs face.

    Crested breeders do address these problems quite proactively. One of the reasons I like the breed is they are quite sensible about showing - their standard allows wide lattitude to ensure the health of the breed. It emphasizes almost exclusively structure and movement and judges seemed well informed. No color, hair type, or variety has emerged as an "unwritten standard" to narrow the gene pool and cause breeders to follow an extreme fashion at the risk of future breed health.

    Breeding for more hair, rather than less, means a healthier dog. It does mean that responsible breeders have to turn away potential pet customers who think the hairless dogs are low maintenence - the way they are bred it's actually the opposite, in order to protect the breed's health.

    With regard to downsized working dogs: there actually is a place for these dogs in the working world, if breeders would get serious about producing such dogs and not toys to appeal to the general public. It's true that I can't imagine the overall usefulness of a downsized draft dog. However, for most other working environments, the convenience of a small dog may be very appealing to some people. They don't eat much, usually, and are easy to transport. This is how we got Shetland sheepdogs, Swedish Valhunds, and Corgis, to begin with. And wasn't the Jack Russell a slightly scaled-down Fox Terrier?

    Working characteristics would need to be of primary importance in producing such a strain in which small size (but not dwarfism, which hampers working ability) was set. But it could be done and it would have some potential in meeting the needs of working people with limited resources, performance people looking for that small auxilliary dog to fill a limited space, or those crazy urban dwellers who simply want a working dog as a companion (yup, they exist and do know exactly what they are getting into!).

    One key point would be that such dogs never be shown in conformation, where size and "cuteness" would become of primary importantance. Witness the Shetland sheepdog, once a useful little all-purpose farmdog but has lost its instincts and sensible nature for almost a century now. And the Corgi, which once had real legs capable of fancy footwork behind cattle and doing the very long and fast blocks needed for real cattle work - forget it now!

    There's two new breeds, that I know of, emerging from the Border Collie at the moment. One is a strain of pure BCs, similiar to the emergence of the Jack Russell terrier - engineered by a single man and carrying his name, McCallum. They specialize in working cattle but are capable of the work all Border Collies do. This strain has been emerging over about 40 years, but they have just recently set up a formal registry. My unregistered pup's dam is a McCallum.

    The other is a crossbreed of Kelpies, Border Collies, and Catahoulas. There was an Aussie in there, too I think, but the Catahoula and Border Collies were the main base stock of the breed. The goal was a dog with the extreme endurance and drive of the cur breed with the trainability and gathering skills of the Border Collie. These dogs are specifically bred to work tough range cattle on huge operations in very rough terrain. I've never seen a Hangin Tree dog but most people I've heard talk about them say they are solid working dogs.

    One reason people will start a new strain of dog, other than designer breeders looking for a quick buck, is when a breed has become to unfocused in its breeding goals and it becomes difficult to find a pup to suit one's purposes. With security becoming more of a priority in today's world, I predict there will emerge some specialized strains of hunting dogs bred to do detection work, SAR dogs, and of course protection dogs. I think the protection dogs are there to some extent but I happen to know there is a crying need for consistent results from labs and other hunting breeds to produce that strong work ethic needed.

    A friend of mine last year was scouring the country looking for rescue labs and other labs that had evidence of being high energy. Her job was to locate these, evaluate them, put basic training on them, and send them on for airport security work. The company she was working with needed four hundred dogs in a single year! My friend is VERY good at finding dogs, but she couldn't do it, not anywhere near. She didn't renew the contract because she is a BC person and much preferred working with them, and besides the contract had turned into a full time job!

    I predict some wise person will see the need for a dog with the scent drive of a hound, the trainability of a lab, and the work ethic of a Border Collie or Belgian breed, and develop a strain of dogs specifically for bomb detection.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Becca,
    You blow me away, girl.  You always have such interesting and intelligent responses.  [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    High praise indeed!

    I actually should be moving electronet fencing and I'm putting it off. I hate that job but with the lack of rain and cold temps our grass just isn't growing like it should, and I've got thirty nursing ewes and almost forty growing lambs making me move them every single day! I'm grazing them on our front lawn area - it's fun once the net is moved, to see the grass mowed down with little effort on my part. Moving the electrified netting is easy, it's just tedious and fussy.

    I've been thinking of the new breed subject quite a bit lately as my two pups grow up, talking to my unregistered pup's breeder, and of course my friend who couldn't find 400 labs capable of being trained for the front line on homeland security, so to speak. I'm sure they are out there, but being able to find them quickly and find more next year, and the year after, forever and ever until we are a completely different culture that doesn't need security measures - I can guarantee you someone's out there working on creating a breed for that niche already.
    • Gold Top Dog
    You just constantly hear about keeping the purity of this breed and that breed.  I'm glad that there are those out there who are trying to breed dogs to fit a much needed function as long as healthy, good quality parent are used of course[8|].  We've had the discussion about how, even inside of certain breeds, there are big varienced between individuals depending on what use they were bred for, i.e., bench goldens, hunting goldens, obedience goldens, herding border collies, bench border collies, performance border collies. etc.

    I know this is putting my neck out but sometimes I wonder if the AKC's seemingly inflexible stand on being the "guardian of good breeding stock" will one day make them obsolete. 

    What is an electronet fencing system? 
    • Gold Top Dog
    I know some English bulldog breeders didn't like where the breed was headed so they started the "Old English Bulldogge"

    The foundation of most of today's Olde English Bulldogges can be traced to English Bulldog, American Bulldog, APBT and Mastiff. These dogs  were used very selectively in various combinations to obtain the desired physical and mental traits of the original Olde English Bulldogge.  The result has been a good looking Bulldogge of great athletic ability that is much healthier and physically fit without most or all of the problems that plague today's modern English Bulldogs. The goal of all Olde English Bulldogge breeders should be to produce genetically healthier Bulldogges that are free breathers, free breeders, and free whelpers.


    Not a bad idea, but a silly name!
    • Gold Top Dog
    I do believe that the AKC and other kennel clubs are way behind the times. I do understand and believe in the need to have some objective standard for a breed that identifies itself in that way (Goldens are, well, golden and rough coated and a certain size, etc.), but I think there should be more emphasis on function (performance for working and active dogs and obedience and temperament for companion breeds) and health - that would be a truly modern mission for a kennel club that considers itself the guardian of the purebred dog or whatever.

    The notion of a dog having value JUST because it has a pedigree and conforms to a physical ideal is actually a very Victorian and creepy idea - it constantly surprises me how it hangs on in today's supposedly better informed world. Perhaps a future champion of purebred dogs will embrace the more scientific approach that form follows function not the other way around.

    The livestock world has long since firmly rejected the idea that functional performance can be dictated by conformation. Back in the day, such notions existed like the idea that milk quantity and quality could be predicted via the color of the cow and the shape of her body. Vast sums were spent on cattle and sheep that were pretty and had pedigrees to rival the Royal Family. Around the turn of the century, science hit agriculture in a big way. The basics of genetics were beginning to be understood and farmers realized that the way to increase production was to track peformance and breed the best to the best, regardless of pedigree.

    To return to dogs, it's significant that the Border Collie arose at exactly the same time, bred by exactly the same people, using exactly the same principles. The sheepdog trial competitions became the way to track performance in an objective way (and also advertise one's "results").

    Electronet is plastic wire fencing with copper wire woven into the plastic strands - the copper wire is electrified. It's on posts you can push into the ground easily and pull up, so you can move it around quickly. Using the electronet, I can make the sheep eat everything in one spot before allowing them to move on. Without the electronet, they'd roam thirty acres and only eat the good stuff over and over, until the only stuff that is allowed to mature and spread, is the bad stuff.

    If you cut the top couple inches off grass over and over, it improves the soil because the roots of the grass die back a corresponding length to the top (two inches of grass roots die each time it's trimmed). You do the same thing on a smaller scale when you set your mower blade high and cut more often, like they recommend. The organic matter created by the decaying roots creates a soil composition that favors - more grass!

    That's how you use sheep to improve and reclaim old, icky pasture without having to disturb the soil or put huge amounts of chemical additives in. The sheep are better than a mower because they process the extra grass into yummy sheep meat and wool, plus they return some of what they eat in manure. They also don't tear up the ground or compact it like a tractor does. In fact, sheep have the least impact on soil of any domestic animal in terms of average pounds of pressure per square inch. The chicken is the highest, by the way - you can use that at your next cocktail party. [:D]

    Managed grazing is a lot of work, takes a lot of sheep, and a lot of knowlege that we are just learning! Last year was one disaster after another - honestly we almost gave up several times. But with tools like the electronet we are getting there!

    Picture of electronet:

    http://www.premier1supplies.com/image.php?prod_id=401&slide_id=4
    • Gold Top Dog
    Very cool abou the Olde English Bulldogges.  I've seen references to this breed and now I know what is different about them.

    Becca,  I've seem e-fences used with horses but nothing so portable.  What a great concept.  Is that you in the picture?

    Di
    • Gold Top Dog
    finally some people agree with me!! i am not against breeds or breeders of purebreds, i just hate seeing the mutilation of classic working dogs! the Olde English Bulldogge should never have been created if the so called purists would have left the origional alone and not added pug -supposedly to give the bully a more friendly house dog disposition instead of being a brute and a gladiator.... essentially the english bulldog has morphed off into several different directions... pit bulls, amstaffs (tell me the difference between a dual registered pit bull and amstaff though..) staffy bull terriers, American Bulldogs.... and some say the American Bulldog is the origional English bulldog that has kept its blood pure by hiding out in the swamps and woods of the south.

    I can understand why some breeds are invented. times change and the needs of certain dogs change. its either adapt or go into the book of extinct breeds.
    I think the AKC is clinging to history more than functionality of a dog - toy breeds excluded of course. as long as people have laps, then they will have dogs designated to fit them. The AKC has turned a lot of breeds into caricatures of what they once looked like. i.e. over exaggerated features or the Irish Setter, English Bulldog, GSD, to name a few.
    Its ok to preserve history, but use paper and ink.... keeping bloodlines THAT pure is what has caused these ailments to rear their ugly heads so often now. Some of you are dead on when you say they existed before, inbreeding is what brings it out so you can get rid of it.... but breeders are running out pure blood. that has become glaringly obvious.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks, Dumdog.   btw-I love your avatar [:D]!

    Funny you should mention the Irish Setter!  This whole AKC breed thing is a sore spot with me.  I've had AKC people look down their noses at my Trudy and ask me "What is she?".   When I tell them that she is a well bred field variety English Setter, they ask if her breeder also breeds "real" (bench) English Setters. Actually, Trudy's variety is closest to the classic, original English Setters.