Which breed fits this scenerio?

I dunno, I really think a sheltie would fit if the size wasn't an issue.

 
I agree.  But I also know shelties vary greatly in size.  There's one in this area that's in the 20" jump height.  And it's not moved to a higher jump height.  So that dog is at least 18+ inches at the shoulder. 
 
I'd be a little hesitant about collies.  I love collies, but most I've seen seem a little flat in agility compared to the other herding dogs.  Perhaps this is a regional problem or training issue?  Most of those are smooth.  The rough collies also seem to have more of a problem with the heat compared to the shelties.  Don't know why. 
 
If one's first criteria is a good first agility dog, I'd suggest the herding or sporting groups.  Although some of the spaniel type dogs are bit heavy to have a nice long agility career.  Flat coats are a breed I've always liked, but there seems to be a lot of cancer in the breed, so I'd definately look for a breeder dog there.  [sm=2cents.gif] worth or less.

Well, I've seen a 65 lb sheltie before.  Size is a real issue in the breed.  Even reputable breeders produce oversized dogs quite frequently.  That's what happens when you cross back to collies so recently.  LOL 
 
I doubt from a reputable source you'd find a dog that is near 65 lbs, but I have heard of them getting to be 30 lbs or a bit bigger. 
 
My two top off at 14 inches.

I disagree that if you have your heart set on a MACH you should probably look at breeds other than a Collie
 
I know a woman with a Smooth Collie named Troy...they're presently working on their MACH 2, and are only about 100 points away from completing it   Are Collies a bit flatter in agility?  Yeah.  But they're not bred for speed, they're bred for agility and being a bit more watchful...agility doesn't always = insane breakneck running psycho dog.
 
Fast dogs ARE fun...but I'd rather be consistent and qualify, than have a dog with a rocket butt that knocks every bar.

While collies aren't as fast as BCs or Aussies, they're not exactly slow, either- and they're a zillion times easier to live with in the house. Barking *can* be an issue, but in general, they're really FUN to train with. And the smooths seem to be significantly more active than the roughs, but my sample size is pretty small- I know Mal is more active than Wings was, although we haven't done anything with livestock yet, and it'll be interesting to see how he compares there.

One thing to consider is that a male collie is a pretty big dog- Mal is 24.5" at 8 months and will probably top out close to the top of the standard (26")- that's a lot bigger than your 22" bench-type labs. And while he's very gentle as far as prey drive goes (and his best buds are a shih tzu and a pug), he *is* a klutz- he could probably hurt a really fine-boned small dog by stepping on them. Some of that will go away as he grows up though and gets a brain.... I will say if you like GSD personalities, I think you might be very happy with a collie- they're one of my top four favorite breeds, and my next large dog will probably be a GSD. (I thought about one before getting Mal- or a standard poodle, but the standard poodle wasn't as good a choice for SD work, and a GSD in rental housing is a problem, and while the dog owuld have been covered as an SD, it wasn't covered as an SDIT.)

Flatcoated retrievers are a lot of fun. We have some friends that have them and they're nice dogs. Prey drive varies- one that we know is awesome with smaller dogs, another (field lines) is not safe with anything smaller than my corgi.And some sporting dogs can be VERY prey driven- I know a friend who had a dog killed by a pointer who picked up and shook her toy poodle- the way some dogs will with birds. He wasn't an aggressive dog, just prey-driven, but that wasn't much comfort.

tzumommy-
did you see my reply to your other thread? 
 

 
agilebasenji: Yes I did see it; thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.  As I said, I am brand new to agility, so I'm not real knowledgable about it or all the different breeds that may not be as popular, but do well in the sport. 

This wouldn't be such a tough decision if I didn't already have 2 small dogs [].  I would simply choose a GSD or a BC.  I wouldn't have this big concern about prey drive, etc.
 
I enjoy working with a dog that thinks for himself; my husband however, does not!  He keeps talking about how he could appreciate a dog that "just wants to please you".  I quoted him the line from Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash that states if she ever met a real dog that has a desire to please she would send him to therapy because that's not normal canine behavior.  They all have their motivators, it's up to us to figure out what it is - and that's the part I enjoy! (as sick as that may sound..[&:].)
 
I discussed the Sheltie with DH; he said he knew someone a long time ago that owned one, and it "was a good dog and listened well".  But, you know, 10-15 years is a long time to choose a dog that just doesn't "grab you".  If that makes any sense....  But, it's also a long time to deal with if you go with your heart, and the dog is not the right fit for the family [&:]
 

Some BC's have more drive than others. If you want one that's toned down a notch, look into show lines. Or go through rescue and look for a young adult that likes other dogs and has had socialization and maybe some training

 
I am starting to lean towards a purebred rescue....If I found a *reputable* rescue, with a dog that has already been temperment tested and small dog/cat tested, I could still get an ILP and compete with it - I just wouldn't have any health guarantees.

I am starting to lean towards a purebred rescue....If I found a *reputable* rescue, with a dog that has already been temperment tested and small dog/cat tested, I could still get an ILP and compete with it - I just wouldn't have any health guarantees.

 
Your other option, for any breed, would be a Golden Oppertunity dog.  GO dogs are dogs that a breeder kept in hopes of breeding/showing and for some reason the dog didn't quite pan out.  A bite went off, the dog HATES conformation, perhaps 2 from one litter were kept, but the other was the one that fit the breeder's needs, etc.  These dogs, if from the right breeder, will be socialized, leash/house trained, crate trained etc and usually younger than 2 years.  If the dog has actually been shown, he will also be accustomed to being examined by strangers.  Of course the more popular the breed, the more GO dogs that are out there. 
 
And absolutely about the ILP/rescue thing.  That's how we got our Malinois.  Just make sure you read up on health-related problems of your chosen breed.  The more you know about the breed, the better you can judge structure and how wellbred your rescue is.  I've had several Belgian people ask if we were showing our girl in conformation.  Check and see if your local library has anything by Robert Cole.  Namely An Eye For A Dog or The Basenji Stacked and Moving.  I know you're not looking for a badsenji, I wouldn't suggest one if your main goal is agility, but Cole's basenji book has the best breakdown of dogs moving I've ever seen in a book.  (Granted, I haven't read that many other breed specific books, so some may be out there.)  You want good hips and (even more important IMHO) good shoulder angles.  Pat Hastings talks a lot about slipped hocks, but I don't really know how prevalent they are. 
 
Seems like there might be a yahoo list for agility dogs needing homes?  Hmmm, I'll look into that. 

Seems like there might be a yahoo list for agility dogs needing homes? Hmmm, I'll look into that.

 
 
[linkhttp://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/agilitydogplacement/]http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/agilitydogplacement/[/link]
 
I don't know anything about this list.  I am not a member of this list.  For some reason I came across it a while back and remembered it existed.  Might be worth a look.

Okay, I have a Border Collie, I've had three.  They were all wonderful, and two of the three LOVED to play with the Lhasas across the street.  The third one ran so fast that the Lhasas wore out before the Border was warmed up....
 
I have considered getting a rescue Border, but I have always chickened out.  The ones I met through rescue were wierd, like, messed up, strange. 
 
I have gotten all my dogs from VERY reputable breeders who will not sell Borders to people who do not work them, or who live in town.  I do not have stock and I live in the middle of a city.  Apparently, once they meet me, I AM a BC person...[sm=proud.gif] 
 
I have been around these dogs for many years and I can tell you that if you are a dog person, and you like a GSD, a Border may be a trial for you.  They are either "ON" or "OFF" (asleep).  When they are awake, they want to go-go-go.  There's no down time.    They also stare, which freaks some people out.  My advice, make friends with a Border owner and borrow their dog for a day.  After that, you can decide.
 
If you are ready after that, read a couple of books.
 
Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men and The Good Dog
 
I LOVE Border Collies, but I always advise caution.  As my friend who owns GSD's says "I LOVE your border collies, but I wouldn't want to own one."

Tobey is only 3, and on the larger side.  Gets along with kids and dogs, it says...
http://www.ncsr-md.org/available.htm

Tobey-
 
Oooohhh, a tri-ing dog.  Is it just me or does everyone think the tri colored dogs are really head turners?  They have the most expressive faces.  I also like the bi-black shelties, but not many are out there.

Tris are WONDERFUL- not that I am biased or anything.

Tzumommmy, your husband might raelly enjoy the collie- it's not that they're mindless at all- but most of the ones I've worked with really DO seem to be motivated by making you happy (Frankly, I didn't believe that was possible until I got Wings, but yes, it is. ). It's not necessarily the strongest motivator, but most will work for it with a decent amount of enthusiasm, even in the face of distractions. Mal works better in public for praise and a high squeaky voice than for food, at this point, partially because he gets SO distracted over good food- I alternate between mid-value treats (like jerky), praise, and the very occasional high value treat (cheese or roast beef, but these cause Delighted Collie Expressions of Joy, which can get loud. )

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji

I am starting to lean towards a purebred rescue....If I found a *reputable* rescue, with a dog that has already been temperment tested and small dog/cat tested, I could still get an ILP and compete with it - I just wouldn't have any health guarantees.

Your other option, for any breed, would be a Golden Oppertunity dog.  GO dogs are dogs that a breeder kept in hopes of breeding/showing and for some reason the dog didn't quite pan out.  A bite went off, the dog HATES conformation, perhaps 2 from one litter were kept, but the other was the one that fit the breeder's needs, etc.  These dogs, if from the right breeder, will be socialized, leash/house trained, crate trained etc and usually younger than 2 years.  If the dog has actually been shown, he will also be accustomed to being examined by strangers.  Of course the more popular the breed, the more GO dogs that are out there. 

We actually got our male sheltie that way.  He was near a year old, already started in agility, obedience, and conformation trained.  He had a few conformation issues that just didn't work out.  He had been very socialized and already trained.  Plus we knew how big he was going to get- 18 lbs, which is part of the reason he wasn't making the conformation aspect of it.  He was sold to us on a spay/neuter contract and we let him meet our other dog at the time.  They got along great, so we ended up with him.  It was a very smooth transition.  Much easier than introducing the puppies later.  He was also socialized with other animals such as cats.  It was really a good experience if you want an older dog but still want some of the guarantees of a breeder and you still know exactly where the dog came from and what kinds of training/socialization they've had. 

ETA:  I have to admit, I'm more of a sable person... all four of my dogs are sable and white.  xD

Haha I'm a sable person too. That's why I think your dogs are so gorgeous!

Just wanted to share - we got my childhood Sheltie from a reputable breeder, but she was the dreaded giant of the litter. She weighed not that much more than 30 pounds, but stood around 19 or 20 inches at the shoulder. She was also very laid back, not at all "skittish," extremely intelligent, and not at all "barky." We only did intro agility, but she was the best in her class, and had an absolute blast doing it.

I guess my message is that not all Shelties are created equal! I don't know much about competitive agility, but if they don't care that much about the breed standard, then perhaps you could find a gentle giant like the one I had.

The only thing I disliked about my dog was the insane amount of shedding.

Tobey is only 3, and on the larger side. Gets along with kids and dogs, it says...
http://www.ncsr-md.org/available.htm

I have to admit; I've looked at that link about 12 times now.  Those Tris are absolutely stunning.  I think I just learned something about myself [8|]  I must have "a thing" for tri colors and long hair; my Shih Tzus are also Tri-Colored.
(but they faded considerably from their puppy days)

This was them at 12 weeks

I have been around these dogs for many years and I can tell you that if you are a dog person, and you like a GSD, a Border may be a trial for you. They are either "ON" or "OFF" (asleep). When they are awake, they want to go-go-go. There's no down time. They also stare, which freaks some people out. My advice, make friends with a Border owner and borrow their dog for a day. After that, you can decide.

Thanks for the insight.  When you say "a Border may be a trial for you", did you mean as in difficult or worth a try?  I was confused by that sentence.

At any rate, I don't have any close friends with a BC; however, I would consider fostering one[8|]  Maybe that would be an option.  My aunt's neighbor has a BC, but she is probably about 9 years old now and wasn't real socialized as a puppy.  My aunt says she's a good dog, but I don't think it's a dog I could "borrow".