Coonhound Q&A!

Cressida, how'd the tracking go?
 
As far as focus goes, I think that comes with practice and eagerness.  My two have trailed, without any training, and they didn't break the trail to veer off for squirrel or rabbit scent.  I think, though, that depending upon the strength of the trail though, focus might vary.

If Marlowe were a rescue dog, you have no idea if somebody tried to train earlier and botched it.   It seems with coonhounds, the earlier that you get them, the easier time you have of it, because unlearning is harder for them than learning.  Fortunately for all of us, most hounds are extremely bribable, and I don't feel any guilt in using bribery-my only concern is that reliance on it can cause a problem if you need cooperation in an emergency situation, need the dog to respond immediately and in the desired way, but you haven't the goodies in your pocket so to speak.  Coonhounds are very loving, but yet very independent.  I think that the independence is necessary to what they are bred for, because unlike foxhounds who tend to stay as a pack throughout the hunting process, from what I have learned and observed, good coonhounds will go off on their own and trust their individual scent cues over mindlessly following another pack member.  They are not about wasting energy in wild goose chases.  The independence makes them the dickens to work with, because they have their own world view, and while you think you may be rewarding them, or may be penalizing them, as you have noted, it doesn't seem to matter a darn to Marlowe.  I refer to it as passive failure to obey rather than blatant disobedience and coonhounds have developed it to a high art form.  They look at you with their soulful eyes as if to say, I haven't the foggiest notion why this is so important to you, but it doesn't mean squat to me, so I think I will take a pass on this-you go ahead.  Have you been treated to the locked legs?   It absolutely amazes me, because 55 lbs of walker coonhound cannot be forced into a sitting position-pushing down on the rump does nothing to get you towards that goal of sitting, and yet she doesn't fight you per se, just locks up and refuses to do what you wish.  Hold a treat, and you would swear she was Islamic facing Mecca for prayers, but without the treat-maybe and maybe not depending upon the mood.  The only hounds really proficient at human scenting are bloodhounds, so I am not sure you will ever achieve your ultimate goal.  If there was any previous training-well...coonhound hunter/owners would have no fans in the PETA camp, because they tend to use live animals to train the pups.  The live animals are kept in a cage and the cage is moved along the course, and eventually, the cage is hoisted up in a tree to simulate the treeing instinct of most of the animals listed as prey.  In most cases, the hunters go no further than that exercise, but I have heard of those who will let the pack rip the prey apart as a reward for good tracking and treeing.  I have also heard of hunters who are just as likely to shoot the dog for non-performance than to shoot the desired prey, so the history and training of coonhounds varies to extreme cruelty to both the dogs and the prey.  Don't know if that will help....

ORIGINAL: suefitz

If there was any previous training-well...coonhound hunter/owners would have no fans in the PETA camp, because they tend to use live animals to train the pups.  The live animals are kept in a cage and the cage is moved along the course, and eventually, the cage is hoisted up in a tree to simulate the treeing instinct of most of the animals listed as prey.  In most cases, the hunters go no further than that exercise, but I have heard of those who will let the pack rip the prey apart as a reward for good tracking and treeing.  I have also heard of hunters who are just as likely to shoot the dog for non-performance than to shoot the desired prey, so the history and training of coonhounds varies to extreme cruelty to both the dogs and the prey.  Don't know if that will help....

I just wanted to say that this is completely true. I live in the south (which I normally hate all the generalizations about us being stupid, backwood rednecks) where this is pretty common place. I have seen people train coonhounds to track raccons by capturing a live raccon in a cage, using a catch pole to hold the raccon, then drag it along the ground and end at a tree, holding it up off the ground. Once the hounds have tracked and found it, the raccon is then dropped to the ground (still held by the pole) and the hounds are then allowed to rip it apart (I'm assuming this is to encourage prey drive). I've also heard of similar approaches to squirrel training. People like these are who give us from the south a bad name. If Marlowe was trained in a similar way, it could be very hard to break his prey drive and keep him on the human scent.

By the way, both of your dogs are beautiful. I just love that hound look. You have more patience then I though. I don't think I could handle that independent and stubborn of a dog. I'll just stick with my slobbery, shedmonster of a Golden. []

everything you explained here....the humoring the other dog...the respect...the need for cooperation....it is all CLASSIC Coonhound! They are more like having a kid or a spouse than a dog. You have an actual living, dynamic, and functional relationship with a Coonhound. You do not own a Coonhound...you are allowed to live in their space.

in regard to tracking...
We are looking into training Ranger as well. We get responses that are all over the board.
The reality of it is....if a Coonhound has a strong prey drive, it will be difficult to overcome. It is both a plus and a minus for tracking training. They need the drive to track well, yet it can be difficult to redirect that drive off of little furries and towards what you want them to track. Now I said difficult...not impossible. They just take a bit more time than dogs like Border Collies and Labs...dogs who will track anything so long as it gets them a "GOOD DOG!" They will take a bit more time and effort, but there is a reason the the Redbone SAR group outwest is successful...once trained they do well!
 
You will likely need to change up your tracking training a little to suit Marlowe. Most tracking training is geared towards training "anxious to please" breeds like the Lab, Border Collie, and Shepard...we both know that Marlowe is not an anxious to please dog. You will have to be a bit creative to keep him interested and motivated. As an example...I have gone to a training session with a friend of ours who is training the lab cross for SAR work. The dogs go out one at a time and do their thing...the first dog is sent, the trainer reviews and offers suggestions...the next dog goes...and so on...
We had Ranger with us and I will tell you...if we wanted to take him out to try him out we COULD NOT HAVE...why??? After an hour or so of sitting there waiting...he got bored and figity...and looked at us like...
"sorry dude, you missed your window of opportunity, i am watching squirrels now"
You have to keep their attention. All Coonhounds have a slight case of ADHD.
 

the practice of the raccoon on a pole and letting the dog "have at it" is called "wooling" and it is fairly common. Unnecessary, but common. These guys could train their dogs just as well with a rawhide...this is performance=reward training gone awry. Dogs do not care what the reward is really...just that there is one.
I disagree with being able to "re-focus" a Coonhound. We trained a PKC Field and Bench Nite Champion English Coonhound to be a pet. Alot of people told us we were nuts for trying. It was a challenge to be sure...just teaching her that a fence was not there JUST for her to jump it took a long while...but it is doable!

I agree with some of what suefitz said and disagree with some of it.
 
Bloodhounds are better trackers...yes that is true...but they were bred for exclusively that purpose. The Redbone SAR groups would disagree that other hounds cannot or will not track well. To say that the blood only hound that will human track is inaccurate. My female Beagle would human track without much training at all. Ranger our Bluetick will track anything you put in front of his face. Two adoptive families have trained their English and Walker to track and have done quite well. I agree it is more difficult...and takes a sight more patience on the trainers part.
you said....
If there was any previous training-well...coonhound hunter/owners would have no fans in the PETA camp, because they tend to use live animals to train the pups.
 
What has this got to do with anything??? Because the dogs may have been trained on live animals you should not own them???  Does PETA hold some prejudice against the Coonie because of its training and heritage? I understand the hunters...but what have owners got to do with it???? 

Oh I totally hear you on the ADHD!!! I made good and sure that when we took our CGC test, we were second in line. We took a practice test the week before and were second to last and Marlowe had totally decided to stop working by that point. He is a Dog of Action and standing around and talking is really not what he's about. He gets all figity and whiney. If he's not doing something, the only other acceptable option for him is being home, on his couch, sleeping. Being in a drafty training center with a hard floor just having to sit there while humans yammer is not in any way his idea of a good time.

I've never had any delusions about Marlowe ever working exclusively for praise, in any task. The group I've started tracking with is primarily made up of positive reinforcement trainers, so the initial work we've done so far has included lots of treats stuffed inside the articles. I have to say though that I knew I'd activated some kind of drive him in him when he began to ignore the treats if I didn't get them out of the article fast enough--he'd be on to the next article. The only time he'll ignore a treat is if he's in prey drive. One good thing about all the snow we have right now is that I can actually see the prints of whatever it is that Marlowe's tracking when I have him just at the park on a long line playing around. Today he found a straight-line human track and followed it quite enthusiastically, perhaps thinking back to this past weekend where he followed straight-line human tracks and there were treats involved. I'm going to remain optimistic though a couple folks have said that their own hound really was a bomb at tracking because of the small-fuzzy cross-track issue. I think the key for me is really cementing in his mind that the small-fuzzies might get you the momentary enjoyment of their intoxicating scent, but the human track gets you a big raw beef bone once we finish the track and get back to the car. Now that is a language a coonhound can understand!

I think the other people with hounds just gave up at the wrong moment...the dog was at a turning point when they were half tracking people and half tracking furries...I feel if they would have kept moving forward with the training and reinforcing the human side and discouraging the furries, the light bulb would have gone off in the dogs head...that is the patience part.