Submissive Akitas?

Well, while akitas typically try to dominate, in a litter, there is a pecking order also. Ogre was probably the lowest ranking dog in the litter, so, he didnt have any dominance when he was a puppy, so he knows no dominance with you. Thats what I think.

While I agree that litter heirarchy does have some influence on the overall outcome of a dog's personality, I don't think it's all so simple as that. If a dog's entire personality was formed while it was with its litter, then I think it's fair to say that there would be one super submissive dog in every litter. So for every litter of akitas born, there would be one dog with Ogre's temperament. From what I hear, there aren't enough submissive akitas for it to be worth mentioning.
 
 
Temperament is, to an extent, genetic. Dogs from more dominant lines are unlikely to produce a litter of submissive puppies. From what I hear, akitas as a breed are dominant dogs...submission is very rarely found in any of the lines at all and is not considered diserable. I'm just wondering if submissive dogs are common in, say, BYB dogs, and the more dominant akitas (who meet the temperament standard) are more exclusive to show/well bred lines.

I don't think it's that simple, either, Ratsicles. Penny was significantly smaller than the rest of her litter mates, but she's always been a confident, outgoing little dog. She's a social butterfly and fairly sure of herself in most situations. She didn't make a very good alpha dog, but she has been one and she defended the position pretty fiercely for a while there. I expect that she was at the bottom of her litter hierarchy because of her size, but since the day I laid eyes on her, she's never been particularly submissive. She's always been cheeky and plucky.

I have heard that it takes a while for akitas to "grow up". Even so, the breeder I visited a while back had a 6 month old puppy who was just starting to test himself against the adult male. I think that's pretty normal.

There are always individuals that aren't what you expect from a breed. Perhaps Ogre is just one of those individuals. No one told him he was supposed to be dominant and dog-aggressive. []

I've felt pretty dubious about the dominance of their nature for a while now. My feeling is that by dominant, they mean full of self-confidence. I believe any dog will step up if there isn't enough leadership being shown, but akitas just step up quicker because of their confidence, and because of their size, it's a lot more obvious that there are problems. But it sounds like Ogre isn't all that confident, either.

I do know of someone with a male akita and female shiba inu, and it's the shiba that rules the roost.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I was going to start one about dog-aggression in akitas. I said in another thread how I met this lovely intact male akita who displayed a lot more tolerance towards other dogs than I had been expecting from an akita. Merlin generally deals with challenges by lying on the challenger until they realise how big and strong he is and gives up. I've known other well-socialised dogs that have used the exact same tactic to deal with challenges. It seems to work really well and no one has to bite anyone. Merlin's breeder told me the only time he's drawn blood was when her nephew encouraged someone with a very mean and savage blue heeler to pit his dog against Merlin. They broke into Merlin's yard to get the heeler in there, and Merlin's usual tactic didn't work, so he bit the dog and did quite a bit of damage. The same heeler bit two fingers off a small girl, so it's fair to say it was a bit of a monster. I wouldn't expect any dog to take abuse from such a dog on its own territory. I thought what Merlin did to it was totally understandable. He tried more passive methods first and only resorted to hurting the other dog when those methods didn't work.

I have spoken to a number of akita owners about dog aggression because it's my chief concern with the breed. Penny is very small, so I'm understandably worried about housing her with a large akita that could potentially kill her if he wanted to. Seeing Merlin did put my fears to rest somewhat, but I suspect I will have to be careful about my breeders. Akitas are uncommon in my country, and most breeders are working hard to turn the breed into a good companion animal. Most breeders I have spoken to have told me that provided I socialise an akita puppy heaps, he should grow up to be pretty safe around other dogs, but I've also been warned that the prick ears and curly tail tends to come across as an aggressive posture to other dogs and it can turn normally friendly dogs into lunging, aggressive maniacs. I hear that an akita may not ever start fights, but they sure do finish them.

I'm interested to hear what people make of both Ogre's and Merlin's behaviour. How common is it for akitas to be fine with other dogs?

Ratsicles, how is Ogre with strangers? Does he show the aloofness akitas are supposed to display?

My first dog was an akita mix and even though he was a mix I think I understand what people are referring to when they talk about akitas as having "dominant" personalities. Ananda was self-confident like no dog I've ever met.  That didn't mean that he was aggressive or bad--he was probably the best trained of any dog I've ever had! But he was definately the Master of His Domain. He was fine with you being in his domain, the more the merrier, but it was definately his. His attitude towards us was largely that of indulgence. He indulged our need to tell him what to do and it made him a great dog to live with. And he never met another dog that he didn't like. Our next door neighbor's enormous chocolate lab was totally his BFF. I digress, but anyway, now I have very non-dominant personality typed dogs and so I don't have much experience with breeds such as akitas and I sort of wonder when people talk about these dogs as being dominant, is it just the way Ananda was or something else?

Not knowing what this dog history was in his formative weeks, and knowing his sire and dam...it is difficult to say really...
 
I've owned Akitas that were fine with other dogs...and I've owned Akitas that were submissive pee'ers...etc. I've owned an 8 month old bitch that clamped onto an shook nearly to death...an old neutered male terrier she grew up with...why? He was focused on his owner (my cousin) and didn't see her as he walked past and brushed her shoulder.
 
Most I would say right around 18mos-2 years really did change a lot in temperament...they are a late maturing breed definitely, as well as sex differences. Young males are typically clownish and insecure, some express this by extreme submission and others by bonehead obnoxious testing behavior. My boy was fine with other dogs, smaller  dogs..even at 5...
 
I like the boys...they are IME more predictable..but that's purely my bias lol!
 
Temperaments in Akitas today are all over the board...having spent time on many Akita lists over the years...the subject of dog aggression is a hot button. MANY breeders in the USA feel it is an innate and necessary part of the breed...and they are out and out against breeding it out. The classic line is "if you want a Labrador...get a Lab..don't expect your Akita to like other dogs"...Akitas that do get along with others...are typically referred to as "Akitadors". It is simply not 'expected' that they behave...and it creates a whole culture IMO of excusal of obnoxious behavior and continued breedings done without regard to the level of dog aggression. They feel it goes hand in hand with the Akitas dignity and way of holding itself...and if you were to soften that aspect...the entire dog would then soften and cease to be "Akita". There ARE tho beginning to be more and more people not willing to put up with that sort of old school philosophy and I hope they get a firm foothold and stay with it.
 
To further muddy things,  BYB bred Akitas are often found at various websites and out in public..living peacefully with other dogs....hmm. Nature...or nurture? Are these BYB Akitas, less aggressive by nature, perhaps due to less concentrated gene pools and close breeding? Is it nurture? Aggro behavior is less expected in a non show pet home and thus the puppy is given MORE exposure to other dogs for a longer time period (wheras a breed might not want to risk it and starts separating them at say 6-10 months?) and thus learns to adapt and "mellow out"?? Is it then selected against among those that have the dogs living strictly as pets?
 
Lots of possible variables...but I will say this...having been with Beagles for a few years now...Akitas have very little uniformity of appearance, character, or health...regionally....nationally...etc. A ring full may contain those with Asian ancestry, those that resemble grizzlies, those that have heavy flews and lips, those with foxy faces, those that love everyone and everything, those that are aloof, and even kinda scary to be around, etc etc. The reason IMO is simply that Akita breeders tend to be like their dogs...they are fiercely loyal....do not like change...like their privacy...and do not open up to just anyone very easily. It is hard to get uniformity in any breed...if every other person has a completely different idea of what that breed should look/act/be like...
 
In the UK...the dogs tend to be highly linebred...there are what 3-4 originating lines there? Then they have offshoots and occasional imports...but the dogs REALLY are uniform kennel to kennel and likely more uniform in temperament..for good or ill. The head type in the UK is amazingly beautiful...the dogs are sound and typey...there is not a variance of type. That is the good side of having less to choose from...and having the benefit of some very very NICE dogs at the beginning.
 
USA breeders started with dogs that well...left a lot to be desired conformationally and temperamentally (the Japanese did NOT send us their best at first). They have made great strides...but they still IMO have far to go to address issues of type, temperament, and genetic/physical soundness.

In light of what Gina has said, perhaps Ogre will change a little once he matures more. The idea that breeders perpetuate the dog aggression in the breed by isolating them is a very interesting one, and it makes a lot of sense to me. After all, standards, especially relating to temperament, are very open to interpretation. I have heard of akitas in showrings snapping at anyone that passes within reach and still winning ribbons because some believe that's a perfect example of the akita temperament. I haven't met many akitas at all, but all of those I have met have been lovely dogs. Not really aloof, but not exactly leaping all over me to say hi, either. Merlin, who I fell in love with, was happy to lean on me and get cuddles right away, but his breeder told me he doesn't let even friends into his yard when his family isn't there. He shared a home with some very small children, and I watched one cheerfully pull a toy out of his mouth and run off with it. He looked disappointed.

Do you have a larger pic of Ogre?  From the head shot in your siggy he doesn't look akita at all to me.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Do you have a larger pic of Ogre?  From the head shot in your siggy he doesn't look akita at all to me.

When that picture was taken his ears weren't both up yet, so that's where the floppy ear comes from.  They're both up now.  He is also suspected to be from some crummy BYB lines...hence the, uh, "un-Akita-like" markings.  I'm sure Britt will post some pics once she sees this...once you see his body and current head I'm sure you'll recognize him as a Keeter.  There are a few pictures in the "Sgt Butter Update" thread in the pictures section.  []

He is a mismark, but he is definitely an Akita...I see nothing else.

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=226404]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=226404[/link]

Whoo, sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. My parents visited today and I spent the whole weekend getting the house ready and then dealing with them. [:'(]
 
Anyway, Yep Xerxes, as Gina and Mikaela said, he's definitely all akita. His markings are unusual and his face is a bit foxy, but he definitely is an Akita. []
 

Ratsicles, how is Ogre with strangers? Does he show the aloofness akitas are supposed to display?

 
Yeah, I think his behavior is pretty typical of akitas in that regard. He barks when he sees people outside, but as soon as I tell him "it's okay" he stops. Same when people come to the door....when he hears someone knock he gets a bit stiff and gives one or two deep barks and marches purposfully towards the door, but as soon as I greet the person with a smile on my face, he's fine. He seems to take his cues from me when it comes to strangers...if I'm glad to see them, he is too. If not, he remains wary, but doesn't display any aggression. When out in public, he sticks close to me and shows absolutely no interest in strangers. If someone comes at him with rude body language (towering over him and patting him hard on the head) he moves away and eyes them warily, but as long as they're calm and polite, he accepts their affection nicely, but doesn't usually return it.
 
He also seems to have a knack for distinguishing my family from "others." If a friend of mine comes over, he ignores them, no matter how happy I am to see them. When ANYONE who is an actual family member comes over, he goes nuts, and shows them the same affection he shows my husband and I. It seems as though he can tell when I'm related to someone (possibly by smell?) and to him, that makes them part of the pack. Even if he's never met them before.
 

 He was fine with you being in his domain, the more the merrier, but it was definately his. His attitude towards us was largely that of indulgence. He indulged our need to tell him what to do and it made him a great dog to live with. And he never met another dog that he didn't like.

 
That sounds exactly like Axl- who happens to be the best and greatest dog ever. [] That's why I was attracted to akitas in the first place- from the descriptions I read of them, the way you describe your dog is the way I picture most akita's temperaments. I LOVE dogs with that sort of personality, and since Axl is getting older, I was hoping I'd find another dog with a temperament close to his. When I spotted Ogre, I was ecstatic, since Akitas seemed the perfect embodiment of what I was looking for- I just never expected to find one in a shelter, so wasn't really considering one at the time.
 

Most I would say right around 18mos-2 years really did change a lot in temperament...they are a late maturing breed definitely, as well as sex differences. Young males are typically clownish and insecure, some express this by extreme submission and others by bonehead obnoxious testing behavior. My boy was fine with other dogs, smaller  dogs..even at 5...

 
I figured that alot of his behavior was probably due to the fact that he's so young. Given his size, I find it's very easy to forget that for all intents and purposes, he's still pretty much a puppy. He still has alot of maturing to do, so he could very well grow out of his goofyness and insecurity, and begin to get less okay with other dogs. I guess only time will tell.
 
 

To further muddy things,  BYB bred Akitas are often found at various websites and out in public..living peacefully with other dogs....hmm. Nature...or nurture? Are these BYB Akitas, less aggressive by nature, perhaps due to less concentrated gene pools and close breeding? Is it nurture? Aggro behavior is less expected in a non show pet home and thus the puppy is given MORE exposure to other dogs for a longer time period (wheras a breed might not want to risk it and starts separating them at say 6-10 months?) and thus learns to adapt and "mellow out"?? Is it then selected against among those that have the dogs living strictly as pets?
 
Lots of possible variables...but I will say this...having been with Beagles for a few years now...Akitas have very little uniformity of appearance, character, or health...regionally....nationally...etc. A ring full may contain those with Asian ancestry, those that resemble grizzlies, those that have heavy flews and lips, those with foxy faces, those that love everyone and everything, those that are aloof, and even kinda scary to be around, etc etc. The reason IMO is simply that Akita breeders tend to be like their dogs...they are fiercely loyal....do not like change...like their privacy...and do not open up to just anyone very easily. It is hard to get uniformity in any breed...if every other person has a completely different idea of what that breed should look/act/be like...

 
 
That's what I was thinking- that there was alot more variation in temperament within the breed than many people and resources let on. At this point, Ogre basically acts very little like an akita is "supposed" to act. Like you said, there could be so many variables in there- it all could be just based on the fact that he's young, but I think there's a bit more to it and while I certainly realize that it's possible, I just can't see his entire personality doing a 180 and him suddenly becoming dog aggressive, dominant, and confidant. I just don't think he has it in him.
 
Ogre has ALOT of quirks- too many to list- and while I don't know his background at all, I do strongly suspect that he was TOTALLY unsocialized when he came to me. He was incredibly fearful of everything- to the point where I'm really surprised that he isn't a fear biter. It just seemed that he wasn't exposed to other people other dogs, normal household objects...on his first day home, we literally had to take him around the house and show him each and every object, let him sniff it and deem it "ok", before he would stop piddling and shaking in fear. He's an INCREDIBLY anxious dog- if we leave for five minutes he has to be secured somehwhere or he will tear the house apart. Luckily, I'm home most of the time so he doesn't have to deal with being alone much...but we're still working on his seperation anxiety. He paces, pants, and whines constantly...theres nothing medically wrong with him, he's just anxious all the time. He's gotten MUCH better, and continues to improve daily, so I'm not overly concerned- I've only had him since mid-October, so I'm very pleased with the progress he's made thus far.

If I get upset with him, he freaks out- He can handle a SMALL verbal correction, but if I display real anger or frustration with him, he trots around the house with his ears back, panting, and grumbling to himself. He just has to pace for a while, muttering (little whines and yips) and then he'll come back and settle down. It's like he gets angry with himself when I'm upset with him. I have to be VERY careful not to be too harsh in my training methods- as long as I have the exact right attitude he's fine, but let me get even slightly upset, and the above happens. I have honestly never met an animal that was as sensitive as he is to other people's emotions. He just can't handle any kind of anger or frustration from anyone, ever. It completely sends him over the edge.
 
That doesnt mean everyone tiptoes around Ogre and constantly lets him have his way- We follow a strict NILF regimen and it's worked wonders for him. I just mean that the WAY we express our feelings has to be very carefully controlled or he'll sulk for *days.*
 
Anyway, I just can't see this dog ever becoming confidant/dominant in any way. It may happen once he matures- but he would literally become a different dog if that were the case. I don't know if this is all genetic, or just lack of socialization (I strongly suspect the latter) but whatever the cause, Ogre is a very...unusual dog, to say the least. He's actually done wonders for me personally- I was always too harsh with my dogs, and he does a great job of keeping my temper in check. I think all of the dogs are happier for the influence he's had on me.
 
 
 
And just for fun, here are some before/after pictures of him-
 
Here he was on his first day with us, just after a bath. He was SO chubby and had been on a really gross food at the shelter...luckily I've now got him at a healthy weight. I think he looks *so* much better.



 
And some recent ones. Looking much better, I think. []


 





 
and, my youtube page. There are some (really crummy) videos there of him interracting with the other dogs.
[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Ratsicles]http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Ratsicles[/link]
 
 

I think I mentioned it before but please be really mindful of bloat. Akita people are really starting to notice a correlation with nervous/anxious highly strung (either drivey or worried)....dogs and bloating and torsing. It seems to happen to a lot of people when they have to leave said temperamented dogs in boarding, or simply have someone come in to feed them...basically any change in routine seems to trigger it.
 
Just wanted to put that out for you....just because it seems to be a common thread in many cases of bloat in young (under 7y/o) Akitas.

Oh gosh she's perfectly aware of the bloat/anxiety correllation...I can't tell you how many times she's freaked out about it to me.  A regular worrywort if you ask me...though much rather that than be oblivious  []

Just as there are Alpha dogs-evey pack has their Omega, and that is an important pack role.  These are the dogs that will socialize, mind, look after, play with the younger, smaller, weaker pack members.  They are the ones who stay behind while the Alphas would lead the hunt for food and generally mind the store.  They can be provoked if somebody or something were to hurt the other pack members.  They will fight to the death for what they consider to be their babies-Omegas can be male or female, but more commonly are lower ranking females.  And believe it or not, it really doesn't bother them to have that role...They tend to be a bit more playful, clownlike, and try to mediate scuffles between other members by being goofy.  I had an akita/GSD cross who was definitely Omega, and we also noted that he never developed the habit of raising his leg to urinate-he didn't mark territory as much as he would urinate over the other dogs spots-specifically any youngsters in residence-much like a female would camoflage the evidence of her defenseless  litter.  They will eat stool to hide the fact that another of the pack is ill or very young-they will also clean up after an animal who has vomitted for the same reason.  They tend to be loving in the extreme, and remarkably easy to train, because they expect direction and guidance from superior pack members.  They are caretakers and nuturers, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing-especially in a household of multiple dogs.   I found that ours blended in everywhere with everyone, and that made him a great travelling dog.  You are the Alpha, when you are out and about, and your dog will expect your protection, but likewise, they will protect you to the best of their ability.