Dog Community

Australian kelpies

Posted : 12/1/2006 7:01:04 PM

Someone asked me way back about Jill because she's part kelpie and they were interested in the breed. So I thought I'd start a thread about kelpies for them.

What I know about kelpies is that they're a hard dog to keep happy. They're complete workaholics and they really want to be doing something all the time. We can take Jill out for a run and she'll spend about 40-60 minutes fetching a ball from the lake and tearing up and down the shore with it, and by the time we get home she's ready to go again, even though she was too tired to run anymore just 10 minutes ago.

I've known kelpies that, if not given enough to do, will simply go and find something to do. They can get a little neurotic. I knew one that lived down the road from us who lived in a small backyard that he was never allowed out of. He turned quite aggressive and took to vigorously defending his fenceline. Working kelpies have to be kept kenneled or chained if there's not enough stock to work, otherwise they run off and work on their own, which can be pretty disastrous. I was told by one farmer that a bored kelpie allowed to roam will go find some sheep and round them uo. He said without the direction from their owner, kelpies can push all the sheep into a corner and they pile on top of one another so the bottom ones suffocate and die. Obviously not good! The same farmer had the happiest kelpies I'd ever seen, though. When they weren't working sheep, they were taking it easy by the pens in the shade waiting for the moment when they could be useful.

I believe that kelpies have dingo in their ancestry, although the kelpie folks will tell you that they don't. I believe there's dingo in there because kelpies have a very similar build and share the same incredible agility as dingoes have. I don't think having some dingo in the blood is anything to be ashamed of, not when kelpies are such superior sheep workers. No sheep farmer I've ever met would be without at least one good working kelpie. I guess the dingo blood in cattle dogs has been blamed for a lot of the problems with the breed being aggressive or a little on the predatory side, so the kelpie folks are pretending there is no dingo blood in their breed.

I don't think kelpies make good pets, but I don't think many herders at all make good pets. I just can't imagine being able to keep up with one! Jill is only half kelpie, but she's still far more active than any suburban dog ought to be. [

] Kelpies do fantastically at agility, though, and a lot of fun can be had with them if you want to do some really active things. Jill can catch most of the toys we throw for her before they hit the ground, and she'd be so good at frisbee, but unfortunately she's still young and eats frisbees.

Anyway, here are some pictures of Jill. Anyone else a kelpie owner/enthusiast?

corvus

Posted : 12/1/2006 7:02:02 PM

Jill in action.

chelsea_b

Posted : 12/2/2006 2:49:46 AM

I started a thread maybe a week ago in this forum asking whether anyone thinks my Cherokee's a kelpie. At this point, I really think she is. Just a little oversized and with floppy ears. The more I read about the breed, the more I think she is. It's a little odd, I guess, because they don't seem to be a very common breed here in the US, but she came from North Carolina, which has a lot of herding dogs, so I figure it's possible.

I feel so guilty if she is for cooping her up in a house her whole life. I thought her aggression was because of being mistreated in her first year (before I got her), and like most ignorant owners, that behavior caused me to shelter her, but if she's a kelpie, it was probably originally frustration for not having a job or anything to do. I don't know...

She's now 8 and regularly does "zoomies" around my house and yard, but is super tired after two minutes tops. My guess is if she got more regular intense exercise, she'd be better conditioned and wouldn't tire out so quickly, and maybe wouldn't be so aggressive sometimes. But it's a vicious circle, because I can't take a lunging, barking, snarling dog to the dog beach or dog park, and I don't know how to exercise her properly without a place for her to run free.

If Cherokee is a kelpie, I totally believe the part dingo thing. We've always said she looks like a hyena, but it's definitely more like dingo, and now that I've seen kelpies, she looks SO kelpie. She's also got quite the prey drive. I can't even count how many possums she's killed in our yard in the two years we've lived in this house. [

] And we see rabbits a lot at my Mom's office, she cannot take her eyes off of them the whole time she can see them, and she's even barked and lunged at them (the interior of my car is quite scratched up [&o]) a few times. Little dogs FREAK her out. (As do horses. Unfortunately it just cracks me up to watch her watch horses. She's so...confounded by them. Maybe she thinks they're HUMONGUS dogs?? [

])

And she's ALWAYS been quite the little cat herder, we've always called her "cat police", and, a lot more recently, "fun police", because if any people, dogs or cats are running, or obviously having fun, she has to put a stop to that. She chases me around and nips at my heels if I'm running around with my niece.

Now, how have I never figured this dog was a herding breed before? I've got no idea. Lab/chow mix my butt! Stupid Chelsea! [&:]

mrv

Posted : 12/2/2006 8:00:45 AM

she doesnt look like the kelpies I see at herding trials.

pofi_pasquale

Posted : 12/2/2006 3:52:53 PM

Hey, MRV - curious about the Kelpies you see at herding trials. We ran into someone shopping at Petco about a year ago who asked if I knew what breed Pofi was and I explained he was a dumped puppy so I had theories, but nothing concrete. The guy went on to say, "Well, I'll tell you what he is then - my dogs compete in herding and your dog is a Kelpie." I said I had wondered if he could be a Kelpie mix and the guy agreed, he was not a full Kelpie. But he seemed pretty convinced. I've had a few others ask about the possibility of him being Kelpie, too. But he's just way too big.

So that's actually my question - would you say the Kelpies you see in the US at herding trials are larger then the Australian standard? When I look at the dogs shown on websites for a few midwest US kennels, I think they look larger then dogs I see on Aussie websites!

Thanks for starting the thread, Corvus - I do think it's an interesting breed. Seem to be more common in the US in southern and western states as working dogs with cattle. There is a woman in the Twin Cities who trains in herding and one of her dogs is a Kelpie - keep meaning to get out there to see them work. I conversed with her about classes - Pofi has clear herding interest, but it's more of a time commitment then I can make.

mrv

Posted : 12/2/2006 5:43:47 PM

All the kelpies I see at herding trials are Australian imports to very competitive trialers or folks who have a sheep based business. There is a woman (whose name escapes me at the minute) who uses her flock of Barbs to graze down kudzu vine. She uses kelpies to move the flock from place to place and portable electric fences to concentrate their grazing. The kelpie I am most familiar with is Barney. He belongs to Cappy Pruett, whom I often go to for clinics and lessons. Barney is built somewhat like a leggy border collie. He is however black and tan with marking pattern like a doberman. He is incredibly keen on stock, unbelievable fast and very game (bounces right back up to work after cattle managed to pin him on the fence for a few moments). He will run backward 20 30 feet (straight line) when given that command. His motion is so smooth and effortless I would swear you could strap a tray on his back and add a glass of water. After his outrun, you would still have plenty of water to quench your thrist. The other kelpie I am more acquainted with is a red girl (liverish color). She too has the tan points. She is much smaller than Barney in both bone and height. Neither dog is big. She is a bit more laid back than Barney.

I doubt I will ever have the level of skill necessary to live with a Barney. He is a working machine and that is truly the only thing he cares about. I think in some ways, his connection to Cappy is linked to Barney's realization, that Cappy gives him the opportunity to work.

corvus

Posted : 12/2/2006 6:11:17 PM

Pofi looks a lot like a kelpie to me. It's true that kelpies aren't big dogs, but if I didn't know how large Pofi was, I'd assume he was more than 50% kelpie. The only thing that gets me are the ears, which have a very strange point to them. [

] But if you told me he was pure kelpie, I'd believe you. That colouration is pretty common in pet kelpies over here.

Chelsea, do you have some pictures of Cherokee?

mrv, Barney sounds like the working kelpies I've met. It's funny because kelpie pups are often sold through the papers for very little as pets, but I met a puppy out on a farm one day that was being kept in a pen. I was giving it lots of pats with my friends and we mentioned that we were quite taken with the dear thing and wished we could take her home. Our host told us how much she was worth due to her parents and we nearly fell over. It seems a shame to me that most Australians never meet a working kelpie and learn how much they're worth to the folks that need them. When I met working kelpies for the first time, I saw instantly how much happier they were than the pets I'd seen in yards. Those dogs lived for work, it was incredible. But having said all that, the pet kelpies I've seen are generally happy enough. Just not euphoric like a working kelpie. [

]

I guess Jill's kelpie parent was one of those red/liver dogs. She's got that brown nose that liver kelpies have. She's also got the slim build. The other parent was a boxer, which seems to have turned her into a dog that's really hard to pick breed-wise!

mrv

Posted : 12/2/2006 6:18:02 PM

Barney did come from working lines, even a working station if I remember correctly. Cappy had been invited down to judge the national herding championships. That was about 5 years ago.

chelsea_b

Posted : 12/2/2006 8:42:35 PM

Chelsea, do you have some pictures of Cherokee?

I posted a few of her, and a few of kelpies I found, in this thread.

Pretty much every picture of solid black kelpies I can find looks just like Cherokee. This site, [linkhttp://www.australiankelpie.net/]http://www.australiankelpie.net/[/link], blows me away because every picture they have looks exactly like her. Honestly the only differences I see are ears, but since a prick eared breed can sometimes have floppy ears, it doesn't seem that weird to me, and size, but badly bred dogs are often bigger than standard. She's not that much taller, she's 20 1/2 inches at the withers, and I gather kelpies are usually 17-20, but she's a lot heavier, 55 pounds, and it seems kelpies are usually 30-40.

Here's a couple more pictures of her. She doesn't cooperate often for the camera, but here's what I got.

brookcove

Posted : 12/3/2006 9:44:01 PM

What I suspect she may be is a Kelpie and . . .something. Heinz 57. There IS a breeder of kelpies here in NC, really awful ones. Many years ago NC was one of the top sheep producers in the country and the top importer of various sheepdog breeds. Besides some of the oldest strains of BCs, we've got English shepherd lines that go straight back to before Border collies existed (and look exactly like Border collies - real fun for a Border collie rescuer, let me tell you!), Kelpies, various Heelers, Collies galore (no more working lines), Coolies, and even New Zealand Heading Dogs.

Don't beat yourself up about not working Cherokee if she's a Kelpie cross. Her nature most likely lies for the most part in her breeding, as you felt originally, if she came from that particular line of Kelpies.

chelsea_b

Posted : 12/3/2006 10:06:47 PM

What I suspect she may be is a Kelpie and . . .something. Heinz 57.

I just think it's weird that she looks SO much like some kelpies if she's a mutt. I mean, every description I can find of a kelpie's coat is totally Cherokee. If you go to Google images, and type in Australian kelpie, every picture of one that is a solid black or brown color looks just like her. It just seems to me that if she were a mix, the coat and body wouldn't be so exactly her. But maybe I'm mistaken. It's just so weird to me because I've always thought she was sort of odd looking, and had such a weird coat. Come to find out both of those things are quite kelpie.

At least now I know that if I ever want another dog that looks just like Cherokee, I don't have to clone her, just have to get a kelpie! I could even have a miniature Cherokee! [

]

brookcove

Posted : 12/3/2006 11:47:05 PM

I have a Finnish spitz that looks just like a finkie except for one little thing. Finkies are never, ever liver colored and she is. Her coat color is perfect, but her nose is pink/brown and should be black. She's just a teeny bit big, too. But everything else is right about her - if I wanted another Maggie (and I might), I'd get another Finkie. So I know what you mean.

How did a Finnish Spitz end up mixed with something and the pups end up at the flea market? I don't know about the last part, but I was watching a local hunting show one day and saw a guy demonstrating hunting squirrel with his special breed of half Finnish Spitzes! He mixes them with fiest and Border collie - and the dogs he was hunting with looked like Maggie's twin sister and brother.

Farm dogs tend to have less romantic stories involved with their mixtures. I think of a farm I pass every day where there's a pack of feral dogs that have been producing puppies every six months on the dot. The pups roll around, the dumb ones get run over or eaten or starve, the sickly ones die, and the smart and healthy ones go on to make more puppies. Most of them are brown or black but many of them are the products of farm dogs or hunting dogs passing through - Aussie, BC, ACD, lab, hound, terriers (lots of terriers), bullies, even a couple of little spaniel looking things.

What I'm trying to say is that it is possible for a mixed breed to strongly favor a single parent in most points - for a collie/border collie to look almost all Border collie, for instance. Or a Bulldog/pit bull to look mostly bulldog. It depends on where the dominant genes lie. A dog can even go back to a grandparent. We've discussed this in teh context of designer breeds, where crossbred dogs are bred back together - the pups will resemble their parents' parents. In a random bred population, this can occur when siblings mate.

We'll never know. It's fun to be pretty sure and go from there. Join [linkhttp://www.lsoft.com/scripts/wl.exe?SL1=HERD-L&H=LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU]Herd-L[/link] and watch for AHBA trials in yoru area where they will have instinct tests. Go and try it out! As long as you can get Cherokee in and out of a car and she doesn't attack people (I'm not sure?), you can try it. If she passes they will give you information on where to find a trainer who can work with you. There should be plenty around you.

corvus

Posted : 12/4/2006 3:21:22 AM

Chelsea, it does look like Cherokee has some kelpie in her. The tail is what really grabs me. That's a very kelpie tail. The pictures you posted of black kelpies were a little beefier than kelpies generally are, but beefy kelpies do exist. Her general build is quite similar, too. The muzzle is a little shorter and broader than what I'm used to seeing on a kelpie. She reminds me strongly of a dog I know that a friend got from a shelter. She was listed as a kelpie cross coolie, but considering I've never even seen a coolie over here, I'm more inclined to say a fair whack of kelpie, but some cattle dog somewhere way back in the line, and a fair bit else that's unidentifiable. [

] One thing you could look for is focus. Kelpie's have phenomenal focus and an intense look in their eyes when they're onto something. Jill's kelpie focus is often interrupted by her boxer side demanding she give up already and go have some fun, but that it's there even though Jill's temperament is generally more boxer-like makes me think it's probably a dominant trait. It seems to be something that comes through in most kelpie mixes.

chelsea_b

Posted : 12/5/2006 1:19:32 AM

Join Herd-L and watch for AHBA trials in yoru area where they will have instinct tests. Go and try it out! As long as you can get Cherokee in and out of a car and she doesn't attack people (I'm not sure?), you can try it. If she passes they will give you information on where to find a trainer who can work with you. There should be plenty around you.

Thanks! I joined that list, and will check it out. And no, she doesn't attack people. [

] She doesn't like strangers touching her ("doesn't like" is a putting it a bit mildly..but as long as people aren't touching her, or me for that matter, she's mostly okay), but has never bitten anyone or even come close. She's all bark and no bite, thankfully.

One thing you could look for is focus. Kelpie's have phenomenal focus and an intense look in their eyes when they're onto something.

Sounds like Cherokee! Cats, rabbits, squirrels, dogs, whatever, I can't get her attention as long as she can see them. Not that a lot of dogs don't have a strong prey-drive, but..everything seems to be pointing to at least part kelpie.

It's so interesting to have a new breed to research. The lab/chow idea seems so ridiculous now, but I just always thought lab was pretty definite, but she's got a chowish personality, and I figured a lab would have to mix with something long haired to come up with her bushy neck and fluffiness. And plus when you push her neck fur and skin around her face she looks quite chow. [

]

Katy Harvey

Posted : 12/7/2006 11:46:55 AM

What I'm trying to say is that it is possible for a mixed breed to strongly favor a single parent in most points - for a collie/border collie to look almost all Border collie, for instance. Or a Bulldog/pit bull to look mostly bulldog.

Yes I agree, look at my little Aussie "mix" I just adopted. She looks purebred to me, but she's still young, she may change.