Pitbulls?? Are they dangerous??? Change of focus!

I don't think gameness makes a pit bull subject to bad public perception. They had that back when bullies were considered to be fine family pets. Responsible breeders already breed for a sound temperament and it hasn't kept away BSL and the fact that every dog attack on the TV news uses an image of a snarling pit bull - even if it's a Border collie (I actually saw this once on the local news - I was so wild with anger I e-mailed the station).

The good breeders already breed sound temperments.It's the BYB's and Gang banger who fight the dogs,that are giving them the bad name.So you will not get rid of the problem totaly.

A well bred pit bull is a wonderful dog.  Unfortunately, I've lived in areas where to find a well bred pit bull would be the equivalent of finding a needle in the haystack.  I watched a young pit bull have to be put down for agressive issues, depsite being rescued and in intensive training.  The pitty was bred from a long line of illegally bred fighting dogs and his aggression level was too high.  Despite socialization and obedience training his animal aggression slowly turned into human aggression (and i knew the persons fostering him, they were wonderful people).  He was bred to be aggressive, and aggressive he was.  It was sad to watch him be put down.  Thankfully law enforcement broke up that particular ring of illegally bred and severly mistreated pit bulls....but it is still a huge problem.  Interestingly enough the ring was discovered by another owner of a pit bull named Duke (who was a sweetie)....this man would act as a spy for law enforcement officials in the area to discover underground pit bull fighting rings.  His dedication to improving the breeds quality of life and public image is something I think should be rewarded.

Then there were pit bull like the one I groomed called "blue" for short (to be honest I cannot remember her full registered name, something like "Blue hills over yonder")  She was a lap dog!  All she wanted was someone to rub her rump and belly and was quite insistent on that []  She was a darling little princess completely and utterly NOT like how the media portrays the breed. 

Blue and Duke are just two of the many pit bulls I have met who were well bred for both breed standards and for temperment.  Unfortunately however, a person who saw say Blue might get the mistaken impression she was a viscious killer because of her breed (and I have to sadly laugh at this because Blue was seriously a sweetheart whose only "fault" was wanting 24/7 butt rubs lol). 

Ok, the English Bulldog was NEVER a ferocious gladiator.

And a responsible breeder IS going to breed for all the correct reasons.
What needs to happen is that irresponsible owners AND breeders need to be punished for their irresponsibilities instead of the DOGS being punished for their irresponsibilities.
Unfortunately, yes, these dogs get into the hands of self interested, selfish and ignorant creeps who do bad things to them and with them. They abuse them and neglect them and THAT, that turns them bad. That and bad breeding turns them bad.
Even though you don't say it, please don't confuse human aggression and dog aggression because these dogs were NOT bred to be human aggressive. Stupid humans got a hold of them and tried to turn their dog aggression into human aggression by training them to behave in ways that are NOT innate for them.

The English bulldog was a breed created by the dog fancy who decided that that is what a bull baiting dog SHOULD look like, they have never actually been used for that.
 
Gameness does not equal aggression.  Back in the day, there were fighting dogs that lived peacefully with other dogs OUTSIDE the pit, and fought when they were in it.
 
According to Diane Jessup in "The Working Pit Bull"---
"Gameness is not exclusive to dog foghting, nor is a dog fight the only way to ascertain how game a dog is.  Gameness does not mean a desire to fight-it means a desire to finish or suceed at a task."
 
Also, animal aggression does not just "turn into" human aggression.  The two are not the same.  It is more likely that as the dog was poorly bred, his human aggression issues surfaced as he matured, which happens in just about any dog that has aggression issues.

Instead of licensing our pets, our pets should have us humans licensed to own an animal. There should be strict guidlines about who can and cannot own a dog, period. If you dont have a permit to own a  dog, it gets taken. As far as the bad owner thing..humans that cannot care for their dogs and have them properly trained, scoialized, and desensitized should be the ones being "humanely euthanized" not the animal that merely did what it learned from its owners. No such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.

I think I'm missing the point of this post.

I know that the English Bulldog as it appears today, were not a ferocious fighter. A fatal mistake were made in that breeding programme when they mixed in the Pug. That really crippled the fighting bulldog. Take a look at this link about the bulldog: [linkhttp://www.moloss.com/001/breed/def/e001/]http://www.moloss.com/001/breed/def/e001/[/link]. 
 
I am totally aware of the fact that agressiveness towards other animals doesn´t make them human aggressive. But that is still not the point... Still the problems is that when these dogs attack, they do it with an unheard ferocity and tenacity. And responsible breeders cannot change this fact....... These attacks are very rare and thank god for that.
 
Please do not mistake me in this discussion. I have had Pitbulls and American Bulldogs for 15 years now and I absolutely love these guys. Im just being objective and just trying to change focus.
Would it be possible  by intelligent breeding, to change the fiber composition of the jaw muscles and the shape of the jaw, without changing their charming behaviour?? We have to think alternatively, because law enforcement and politicians do not listen to the cliché about "responsible breeders". They want a scientific approach involving experts in cynologi (experts in the art of dogbreeding). So let´s give them that for gods sake, because I do not want my county to ban pitbulls.
 
THX. 

Ups. This was a general reply, not just to Sheprano.....[]

ORIGINAL: Gnu

I know that the English Bulldog as it appears today, were not a ferocious fighter. A fatal mistake were made in that breeding programme when they mixed in the Pug. That really crippled the fighting bulldog. Take a look at this link about the bulldog: [linkhttp://www.moloss.com/001/breed/def/e001/]http://www.moloss.com/001/breed/def/e001/[/link]. 

I am totally aware of the fact that agressiveness towards other animals doesn´t make them human aggressive. But that is still not the point... Still the problems is that when these dogs attack, they do it with an unheard ferocity and tenacity. And responsible breeders cannot change this fact....... These attacks are very rare and thank god for that.

Please do not mistake me in this discussion. I have had Pitbulls and American Bulldogs for 15 years now and I absolutely love these guys. Im just being objective and just trying to change focus.
Would it be possible  by intelligent breeding, to change the fiber composition of the jaw muscles and the shape of the jaw, without changing their charming behaviour?? We have to think alternatively, because law enforcement and politicians do not listen to the cliché about "responsible breeders". They want a scientific approach involving experts in cynologi (experts in the art of dogbreeding). So let´s give them that for gods sake, because I do not want my county to ban pitbulls.

THX. 

 
I really doubt that the jaw has anything to do with it.  Dogs do not attack because their jaw tells them to, they attack because of temperment issues.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Gnu

I know that the English Bulldog as it appears today, were not a ferocious fighter. A fatal mistake were made in that breeding programme when they mixed in the Pug. That really crippled the fighting bulldog. Take a look at this link about the bulldog: [linkhttp://www.moloss.com/001/breed/def/e001/]http://www.moloss.com/001/breed/def/e001/[/link]. 

I am totally aware of the fact that agressiveness towards other animals doesn´t make them human aggressive. But that is still not the point... Still the problems is that when these dogs attack, they do it with an unheard ferocity and tenacity. And responsible breeders cannot change this fact....... These attacks are very rare and thank god for that.

Please do not mistake me in this discussion. I have had Pitbulls and American Bulldogs for 15 years now and I absolutely love these guys. Im just being objective and just trying to change focus.
Would it be possible  by intelligent breeding, to change the fiber composition of the jaw muscles and the shape of the jaw, without changing their charming behaviour?? We have to think alternatively, because law enforcement and politicians do not listen to the cliché about "responsible breeders". They want a scientific approach involving experts in cynologi (experts in the art of dogbreeding). So let´s give them that for gods sake, because I do not want my county to ban pitbulls.

THX. 

What does changing their jaw structure have to do with anything. I certainly hope you arnt reffering to the supposed extreme power they have. Its not anymore stronger then a Beagle or even a German Shepherd. Look here..
[linkhttp://dogs.about.com/od/dogbreeds/a/pit_bull_faq.htm]http://dogs.about.com/od/dogbreeds/a/pit_bull_faq.htm[/link]
and here
[linkhttp://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html]http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html[/link]
and here
[linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull[/link]
 
What makes a pit bull so able to hold on is instinct and gameness. They were built to hold on becuase of they were holding onto a 800 pound bull while its kicking and the humans are trying to wrangle it in it will go nuts and attack if the dog let go. THAT is what pit bulls were originally bvred for. Capturing and holding onto bulls and bears, they couldnt let go until the animal died or it was given the let go commadn or the wild thing would tear after the humans.

It's just the Bulldog, not the English Bulldog.

ORIGINAL: Xeph

It's just the Bulldog, not the English Bulldog.

More specifically it is teh Olde English Bulldog, which resembles our modern day American Bulldogs. They were mixed with Mastiff's, go look here
[linkhttp://www.dogbreedinfo.com/oldeenglishbulldogge.htm]http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/oldeenglishbulldogge.htm[/link]

Yeah. I hear you. The jaw basically has nothing to do with the pitbulls bad reputation, and it doesn´t have a stronger jaw structure than many other breeds. Look here: [linkhttp://acf2004.tripod.com/id8.html]http://acf2004.tripod.com/id8.html[/link]. (remember only to refer to scientific articles and texts. To much crap is being written by people with no scientific background and know-how!!). I was just stating an example in my previous reply, we need to change "something" about the breed whatever it might be. The scientist Dr. I Lehr Brisbin in the link i sent you say that pitbulls are no different from other breeds. Although I am a man of science, I have to object to some of the things he is proclaiming. The skull of the pitbull, is short and compact and thus he moves the center of gravity nearer the axis of rotation, when grabbing onto ex. a bulls nose and holds (or whatever he might grab onto). I cannot imagine that not being an advantage when fighting, and many other breeds with a long muzzle does not have this advantage. But this is all speculative. I got that from my previous link about the bulldog on moloss.com.

Wow. I love this discussion. People here seem to know what they are talking about, not all those "i need a strong dog to protect me" types....
 
THX.