Americn and Native American Indian Dogs

    • Gold Top Dog

    Americn and Native American Indian Dogs

    As I was looking up hypoallergenic dog breeds, I came across Native American Indian Dogs on one of the lists. When I started to do research on them, not only did I discover that there were actually two different breeds: American Indian Dogs, or AID's (see [linkhttp://www.indiandogs.com/]http://www.indiandogs.com/[/link]) and Native American Indian Dogs, or NAID's (see
    [linkhttp://www.majesticview1.com/Breed_Info.htm)]http://www.majesticview1.com/Breed_Info.htm)[/link] .Unfortunately, both breeds are surrounded by confusion and controversy. The most prominent breeders of each type seem to think that the other "side" is making fraudulent claims about authenticity and pedigrees. There is even a web site claiming that AID's are a hoax: [linkhttp://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/148/]http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/148/[/link]. I have started organizing the information I have into some form that other people can use---so that others do not have to spend as much time and effort that I have, trying to find out what is true and what is exaggeration. I would love to have help in this. Is there anyone out there who has either one of these breeds or knows anything (first-hand) about them?---Skip any "here-say" or rumors: I'd like real evidence, preferrably with pictures.
    --Thanks--Lucy Schroth DVM (a.k.a. Lucy Pinkston DVM, a.k.a. "Dr. Lucy";)
    • Puppy
    Hey, Lucy. Have you been able to find anything about these dogs to solve at least part of the mystery surrounding them? 
    • Gold Top Dog
    I came across those dogs too, but I didn't see any of what you said you saw. As far as I can tell they're the same breed.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Nimela,
    I never was able to find out any more, so I gave up. My feeling was that there was too much secrecy and defensiveness on the part of the breeders of the foundation stock to make me want to deal with the breed. If I lived close to one of the smaller breeders (who were very nice and very helpful), and could visit the parents and the litter, then I would have been happy to get one, but probably no happier than I would have been to get a mixed breed dog whose parents I could meet. I finally got a beautiful, adolescent, female German shepherd from a reputable breeder. We are very happy with her and my husband is not allergic to her.
    -Lucy
    • Gold Top Dog
    I doubt if the "real" Native American Dog even existed.  Native people, I suspect, would have been fairly pragmatic about utilizing those dogs that could pull, herd, carry, etc., and would not have had access to todays spay/neuter surgical procedures.  The likelihood is that their dogs were of mixed heritage!  At any rate, there is still a great problem of overpopulation on the Navajo Nation, where, incidentally, quite a few people suggest that the Native American Dog came from (although, if you look at the dogs on the site below, they look nothing like one of my students's dogs that was purchased from one of the sites you mentioned).
    If anyone really wants a rez dog, maybe it would be nice to help these people out and adopt a pup:
    [linkhttp://www.desertanimalcompanions.org/]http://www.desertanimalcompanions.org/[/link]
    • Bronze
    Based upon that picture, you can certainly see pragmatic in that animal-looks like some retriever, and some herding dog, and a heavy coat, not only to insulate but to serve as protection from wild animals, I would imagine.  And the other thing, is that it looks to be fairly resourceful, intelligent, well socialized, and a good companion, which may be nature or nuture, but a nice looking dog nonetheless.
    • Gold Top Dog
    as for the "BREED".... i came across one site that admitted to crossing coyotes with huskies.... [8|] is that even safe? Carolina dogs, i would wager, could be considered NA dogs....my grand mother had a suspected CD.. this puppy showed up during a winter storm, it was too young to leave its mom but old enough to wander off and get lost. my grand dad swore she was a coyote mix. she always had a feral, slinking, pariah dog attitude... but she could not only chase squirrels but she would catch them. she and the cats once out maneuvered a squirrel... she caught it, killed it, and brought it to her friend (a rotti mix) she used to hunt grass hoppers and eat them when she was a puppy (but so what.. i had a dobie puppy that would do the same lol) photo bucket wont load for me so i cant show you her picture.
    Catahoulas are also said to be a mix of tribal dogs AND the dogs left over from the Spanish conquistadors.... they're rumored to be a mix of red wolf and some sort of mastiff or bulldog type.

    i think turning the native american dog into a "breed" is just ... well... lame. i mean.. why? ok it pulled travois, it hunted, it herded, it protected, it was food.... i could name fifty other breeds that could do the same.... you wanna talk about mutts? these are... what.. ? ancient mutts? come on, are you serious? lol
    i like Spiritdog's idea... you want an indian dog.. then adopt one from the local Rez.
    • Gold Top Dog
    There are actually several well-documented breeds of dog that were maintained by the Native Americans. It is true that among nomadic peoples there was much intermingling, but there were still types that is was possible for early explorers to identify and record.

    And among those cultures that had a more agriculturally-based lifestyle, distinct breeds were fostered for various purposes. It's possible to control breeding of animals by more ways than simply surgical sterilization, and Native Americans were well informed about the principles of selection for purpose and even aesthetics. It was they, after all, who showed the first European settlers the basics of crop growth in the New World.

    The Klamath dog, found in the Columbia River region of Canada and New England while the first nations were still extant there, was a short legged dog, but not dwarfed (ie, straight, not bowed legs, observers of these dogs knew the difference), piebald marked, with body colors of black, brown, or brindle. It had erect ears , a smooth coat, and a brushy tail. It was bred for elk hunting.

    The Clallam dog was found in cultures that had their home in and around the islands of the Puget Sound. These dogs were bred very carefully for their wooly hair, which was spun into clothes and blankets.

    Another short legged dog that went by many names seems to have been bred among similiar river valley cultures that spread from Virginia to California. This clever little breed of dog had many purposes, from hunting small beasts to acting as watchdog and caretaker of children, and even to the extremely important job of assisting in driving fish to weirs.

    Anther breed documented among the Hare nation around Canada's Great Bear Lake, was a whippet-like dog, "white with dark patches" and very wide, webbed feet, which was bred to bay up moose and other large game. It was said that these dogs were even more highly valued than their children, as a good dog meant the difference between eating and starving! The Slavey, Beaver, and Dogrib had similar dogs. There is a painting by Audubon of the Hare dog.

    Another purpose bred dog was found in the Pacific Northwest. The Tahltan Bear Dog was a small creature that was carried in a basket on the hunt until the large, more general purpose dogs bayed up a bear. Then the more agile dogs would be released to harass and distact the bear until it could be dispatched by the humans.

    Another terrier type dog hunted otters for the Yahgan of Tierra del Fuego. It was a soft grey color, with distinctly webbed feet. They too were to lay low in baskets small enough to be toted on board punts, and then pursue and retreive otters that had been wounded by the hunters.

    Another South American coastal people, the Chono, used trained dogs, probably of the same type as the Yahgan, to drive fish into nets. They also had another breed which they bred for their soft wooly coat, like the Clallam.

    One of the earliest evidences we have for purpose bred dogs anywhere in the world, in fact, comes from South America, where in Patagonia there are fossilized remains of a wolflike breed, the size of a foxhound. This dog in fact matches descriptions of the dog which the people of that area used to hunt guanacos and rhea.

    At some point which most likely coincided with the turn from hunting in this area, to herding, this same dog was transformed into a dog that resembled a small collie (not Lassie, but old farm type collie). There are still ancestors of this dog in that area today.

    The Peruvians also bred a small pug-type dog which had no apparently purpose other than companionship and fancy. [;)] The notable thing is that they did in fact maintain this ornamental breed - even in so-called primitive societies there is still room for aesthetics and the capacity for experimentation.

    The Colima in Mexico seem to have been the ones to first isolate and purposely breed the hairless dog in the New World, in about 250 BC. This makes this dog one of the most ancient continuously purpose-bred dogs, currently in existance. As many know, the Xoloitzcuintli was a companion, a living hot water bottle for achy joints, and was a last shot in the locker to sacrifice to the gods in case of severe drought.

    Amazingly, these early breeders seem to have understood very clearly the nature of the lethal gene they were dealing with, in breeding the hairless. They were careful to breed for complete dentition in favor of complete hairlessness, and kept the dogs with full coats for outcrossing. Instead of breeding for less hair, they rubbed the dogs with dipilatories (a practice still done today, by the way), for that "correct" look.

    Primitive? I think not. [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ok ok ok i want your bloody resources!!
    not because i doubt you.. but because its interesting!! i want to know more... not just about these dogs but dog history in general.
    i have only managed to find some short mentionings of the tribal dogs in the history books.... no details at all. i've also seen a couple of paintings ... but ... it was still not very detailed.

    by the way .. [sm=bow2.gif]
    • Gold Top Dog
    No huge deal. I have friends in high places - my adviser when I was working on my Masters in History was also crazy about dogs. She ran the local branch of Golden Retriever Rescue. We had lots of fun trading doggy primary sources and research articles.

    Glover Allen. "Dogs of the Amercian Aborigines" Bulletin of the Museum of Comparative Zoology, vol 58, no 9 March 1920

    Take that one with a grain of salt - it seems likely that he divided several "breeds" according to the current understanding of genetic distinctness, which included color and coat. The Plains breeds in particular were probably not as distinct as he assumes simply from his readings of primary sources.

    The Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. ed. Guy E Moulton (University of Neb Press, 1983). This is the complete unabridged version. Relevant entries mostly in vol 4.

    Farley Moway. Sea of Slaughter. Atlantic Monthly Press, 1984.

    Samuel Hearne. A Journey from Prince of Wale's [sic] Fort in Hudson's Bay to the Northern Ocean. 1795. Reprint De Capo Press 1969.

    Alexander MacKenzie. The Journals and Letters of Alexander MacKenzie. ed. W. Kaye Lamb (Cambridge University Press for the Hakluyt Society, 1970).

    Marion Schwartz. A History of Dogs in the Early Americas. Yale University Press, 1997.

    Alana Cordy-Collins. "An Unshaggy Dog Story." Natural History, February 1994.

    That should get you started, lol.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Brookcove, which of those is the best for dogs in historical Mesoamerica? I've been doing a sort of art survey of all the dogs in the Mayan and Toltec collection at our local art museum just for fun and I'd love to know more about the actual history behind just the appearance...
    • Gold Top Dog
    The last reference has some good stuff about the hairless breeds, I believe, and the penultimate one has the info on South American breeds.

    The way to track down information like this is to utilize the loan/transmit system that most libraries now particpate in - particularly universities. If you read Spanish, for instance, it should be possible to get material e-mailed or transimitted via fax from international universities. For a fee, of course. [;)]

    A good place to start is the Library of Congress online, and the New York Met is another - they have vast networks of links to other online sources - not all directly available online, but places you can contact to get more info.