Aussies...

    • Gold Top Dog

    Aussies...

    So my  brother moved home and took Sam. He's much happier with an almost full acre of land to play on all day, and a pond to play in when they are home. He's such a happy boy now. =)

     My parents are getting an Aussie pup for my Dad, its going to be his dog. The girl has one more pup avalible, a black and white male. MY parents is a blue merle male. They have offered to buy the pup for me. But I would like to know more about the breed, and how busy I need to keep it. The parents are working stock, thou the mother is a very laid back dog. Thou they are working stock, they only work a few cattle, goats, and horses. Not the crazy hyper type of working stock. So personality wise and needed physical activity wise, would it be a good dog for someone who works full time and goes to school part time? I would of course still make plenty of time for my dog, and give it daily exersice.

     Thanks guys! I know I haven't been around in a while, but I'll try to pop buy more often! =)

    • Gold Top Dog

     I would not bring two litter mates into the same home. Trying to raise one smart, high energy pup is enough without adding a sibling to the mix. Siblings tend to bond closer with eachother than their families.

    That said - I take my 6 year old aussie for a mile run each night, and they STILL have a ton of energy. I had a 10 month old for a short while, and he kept me and my other dogs on our toes. Very intense dogs, especially if you're talking working lines (I don't know my dogs lines, they are rescues)

    ETA: If my 6 year old does not get enough exercise, he destroys things. We found this out the hard way... had some personal, family things going on - which did not leave the time that he needed to be exercised, and took his boredom out on the couch pillows. That was only 2 or so day of no running... I'd hate to see what he'd do for longer stints.

    • Gold Top Dog

    My aussie girl is from strong herding bloodlines and is 2.5 years old.That first year she was a big ball of energy but now she mostly needs alot of mental stimulation.We have an agility coarse in our yard and she is always up for any training practice.My male is 1.5 years old and still runs zoomies endlessly.He does not have the strong drive my female does but is much more happy go lucky.He too needs mental stimulation moreso than physical exercise.He gets bored very easilyStick out tongueBoth of my dogs love to retrieve frisbees and tennis balls and get the oportunity daily.I like to have them take turns and practice sit-stay while the other retrieves.Both dogs are happiest when they are with us.They do NOT like to be left out of anything.If I remember right you had a BC before Sam so you must be somewhat familar with the needs of a herder.Do take into account the additional grooming time.Aussies are double coated furry beasts and need to be brushed almost every day.

    Tena

    • Gold Top Dog
    1. Its never a good idea to adopt siblings. Never ever.

    2. The doggy parents are laid back because they have a daily outlet: they work stock. Even if its minimal herding, its still satisfying their need. Without that outlet the doggy parents would probably totally different dogs. Pay more attention to how they react to new people. Especially new people coming on to their property. That will give you a better idea of their personality.

    Aussies have strong guardian instincts. Stronger than most people realize because when most people think aussie all they think about is herding. But these dogs take protecting their family and property very seriously. In the wrong dog, this can lead to big problems. My dogs need more mental stimulation than physical exercise. That is probably the most challenging thing for me. Its easy to take them out for a daily run around, chase frisbees, swimming etc. But it is a challenge to come up with something to works their minds every day.

    They can be very easy to train or the hardest dogs you will ever train depending on the dogs temperment. Personalities seem to vary pretty wildly with these dogs. Most of them are very soft. My dogs get stressed out if they see another dog getting a correction (even a verbal correction). Positive training is the best way to go.

    They need a lot of socialization with people, situations, noises, etc. They are reserved with people they don't know unless they receive a lot of socialization when young. I've known a lot of fear biting aussies unfortunatly. Also, mix strong guardian instincts with fear and you have a big problem.

    The best traits are loyalty, willing to please, strong work ethic, high intellegence and velcroness. All of These traits are what make aussies my fav breed.

    All this said, please don't adopt siblings. If you really want an aussie wait a bit and get dogs from a different litter and at least a year or 2 apart in age.

    Also if you are working and going to school, there is just no way to predict what your life will be like next year. Will you have a lot of papers to write, studying to do, etc? There are only so many hours in a day. 5- 8 hrs of work, 3-4 hrs of classes, 2-3 hrs of homework. then add in dog training, dog exercise, keeping a dog mentally challenged. What about your social life? Wil you feel guilty going out on a fri night after a long week of not giving the dog enough time because of work and school? I had a dog in college and its not easy. So give this a lot of thought. Aussie puppies are hard to resist, so try to see beyond that

    • Gold Top Dog

    My question is: Why'd you rehome Sam in the first place? Also, how would getting two very active breeds, not to mention siblings achieve anything?

    ETA: Don't know the back story on Sam.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Tiffy - I didn't want to, actually. But my brother moved back to our area and proclaimed Sam "his" and took him. My parents were on board with it. I was not. But after seeing him settle into his new place and how much happier he is there, I can half way agree with it.

     

    I normally listen to you guys, but this time I did not. Sorry. =( I brought home a puppy(Blake), as did my Dad(Eli). They are staying with each other in a crate at night until tomorrow, when I go buy Blake one of his own to go in my room. They will be together during the day, but at night seperate. It's probably a horrible idea to bring home 2 puppies at once, in fact I know it is. But I'm willing to work my *blank* off to make it work. I work about 9hrs a day at one of the best Veterinary Offices in my area, I can bring Blake to work with me if I'd like, and I plan on it, however, not often. I don't want him exposed to the germs and the stressfull invironment that much. My school is only 3 days a week, one class is tuesday and thursday, the other friday. So my homework is spead out pretty well, and it's only an english class(fridays) and a math class(tuesday & thursday). I get up at 6 everyday for work, it takes me 10mins to get ready, and I leave at 7. So that gives me roughly 50 mins in the AM for mental/physical stemulation. I get home at 6 of an evening, if I don't have class. I also plan on taking Blake with me everywhere I possibley can, as soon as he has all of his vx's and is neutered. I want Blake to bond with me as strongly as possible while still being a friendly, out-going dog. He is already proving himself to be the more dominate pup, and also more adventurus. Versus Eli who is reserved, shy, and quite. I think the match is good for both myself, and my Dad.

     

    As always, I really appricate ya'lls advice, it's so helpful(even when I don't take it).

    I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it is my choice to take Blake, and I will handle all the conciquences of doing so.

    If anyone would like, I'm very willing to post pictures of my baby, and my Dad's pup too.

    • Gold Top Dog

     good luck....

    • Gold Top Dog

      Since you choose to bring littermates home, you have your work cut out for you to ensure they develop into normal, well socialized adult dogs. Be aware that since you brought home same sex littermates, there is a chance that after they mature they will become aggressive to each other. What you are seeing with one puppy being bolder (I hesitate to ever use the word "dominant" especially describing baby puppies) and one puppy being more fearful is the beginnings for what trainers often call "littermate syndrome".IME some breeds are much more prone to developing full blown littermate syndrome and the herding breeds seem to be among the most "at risk" for it.

      Dogs generally mentally develop much differently when raised with littermates, especially same sex littermates than when raised as only puppies. This is because the situation triggers more pack oriented or "wild" behaviors behaviors as they mature. In a pack of two, one would naturally become bolder, more pushy and quicker to explore and one would naturally take the role of being more cautious and easily frightened.

     This may not seem like a big deal if you don't feel that one puppy developing into a fearful dog (even when they didn't have to be that way) is a problem. But as they mature, the addition of other pack oriented  or "wild" behaviors mean that the bold dog may start to become aggressive towards people or animals which frighten the more fearful dog. That is probably one of the most common issues I have seen as a trainer with herding breed dogs being raised with littermates.

      Another issue is that the littermate dogs will often bond closer to each other than to the humans. Or because they are so focused on each other, their owners have a hard time training them. Who needs humans when you have another puppy to play with all the time?

     All of that said, there are things you can do to prevent your puppies from developing littermate syndrome. The first step is that you need to rethink how you feel about raising littermates. The vast majority of people want their littermate dogs to hang out together all the time, go everywhere together and do everything together. They want two puppies so they can "keep each other busy". Unfortunately, that is the worst thing one can do from a behavior standpoint.

      To properly raise littermates, the puppies need to be separated as much as possible. They need to be crated separately in separate parts of the house. They need to be taken out separately, socialized separately, fed separately, exercised separately and go to separate training classes.  They can play together but should not be left together alone for extended periods of time. Their play should also involve training on a regular basis - calling puppies from play for treats, then letting them go back.  They need to develop a strong bond to their owner and develop as individual dogs instead of as "one of two".

      The other main training issue with littermates is the issue of the time and effort it takes to properly raise two puppies. For most people, taking in two puppies means that each puppy will only get half the time and attention that one puppy would get when it comes to training/socialization.You may have an advantage here, since you said one puppy is your dad's and one is your's. IME for owners willing to properly raise their littermates, this seems to be the best scenario. You do everything with your pup and your dad does everything with his, separately :)

     I do hope that you will reconsider bringing him to work with you - that is a great way to help him develop apart from his brother, ensure he bonds to you and offer socialization opportunities. I wouldn't take him until after he's had his second parvo/distemper shot but puppies absolutely need early socialization, prior to being "fully vaccinated". They should meet hundreds of people by time they are 6 or so months old and be exposed to all sorts of situations. Herding breed puppies most especially need this early socialization and even more so, herding breed puppies already displaying shyness or fearfulness at a young age.

      Check out American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's position statement on puppy socialization: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:DTx7zXWnN1oJ:www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy%2520socialization.pdf+avsa+puppy+socialization+position+statement&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgYVeqtDENXfm4hOaV7dUeDK3MM9jJhh1o78ZaXsanuO6j7tK2c1tYnthRnLbGwDYfOK7ZfJr1D4XF6jdcF_BY-pxkmluuVdF0B05F-JQy18CEBPm8A9j7N8HCurKbFgS7igDLO&sig=AHIEtbRXVhptQ0yruiwszv4yIKEuNqbmwg

      And info about raising littermates:

    http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

     

    http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/livingwlittermates.html

     

    http://www.poochprofessor.com/A_TwoNotFun.html

     http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:D5mkEGR1yQoJ:www.petworksco.com/Littermates.pdf+raising+littermate+puppies&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiuIjOuC9lvLcCV-UhZqjrB4_Nj61T5YBHVOsDUB9-DEdwG3fk15_gCvGf2tYW45tmuT4B5TkPXrPkHZPcA_t-m9KlhYf0Aq4Q3kjnDzd0FJtugoBq0eabX8CNV5e2r8FaQB3-0&sig=AHIEtbShgw07llVj10fy5ZUvYq_qDY9Vaw

    http://dog-care.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_raising_two_puppies_together_is_not_a_good_i

     

     http://buddyschance.typepad.com/positive_dog_training_blo/2007/04/adopting_litter.html

    (I found this really interesting: "In fact, according to Steven Lindsay (author of Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training), one Guide Dog organization reported problems when a mother and child pair was fostered together and when littermates are fostered together.  Quoting a representative of the organization: "I cannot remember a single dog who was raised with her mother to adulthood who could be successfully trained for a Guide Dog.  Where two litter mates are raised together in the same home we have had the same results. . . . one becomes a successful candidate for Guide Dog work and one fails, even if their aptitude tests were equal." (Lindsay, 2000, p. 50).";)

         I wish you luck with the puppies. If you are willing to raise the puppies separately and meet the early socialization/training needs of both of them you can have success with this. However, if you don't feel confident that you or your dad will put this sort of effort into raising these puppies, it is in everyone's best interest to rehome one of the puppies now. This requires a family discussion and an honest look at what you are willing to do and what you can do to ensure these puppies are both properly and individually socialized. If you have any questions about raising littermates, feel free to PM me. I have worked with quite a few littermates over the years and raised a group of three puppies until they were 6 months old. Littermate issues have sort of been a special interest of mine for years :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wow Agile, great post!

    Tena

    • Gold Top Dog

     Heres my story of two female littermates. From Day 1 they slept in the same crate, lived in the same kennel, were fed together, etc... They were owned by a BYB and when one had babies ( all in the same kennel) the other female killed all the puppies and you know what happened when the other one had babies. They were also killed. They eventually turned on each other, if you didn't know females fight to the death and one had to go to the vet. The other sibling did not even know how to function without the other. Seriously! Eventually they would only allow the owners to feed them. BTW, they were corgis.Definitely a herding breed. Good luck.

    • Gold Top Dog

    This sounds more like irresponsible ownership than anything else to me, no offense. Even in my uneducated opinion, I would never let the dogs stay in the same kennel after the first time.

    Congratulations on your family's new additions! It sounds like you're prepared for the hard road ahead, so good luck =)

    • Gold Top Dog

    misstrouble
    I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it is my choice to take Blake, and I will handle all the conciquences of doing so.

     

    Actually, the dogs will be the ones who deal with the consequences of your decision. 

     I'm glad to see you again and have wondered how you were doing.  I can't pretend I'm not very shocked that you don't have Sam.  I'm equally surprised that you've decided on getting this aussie pup at the same time your dad got one.  I'm not sure why you made that decision but it sounds like it was made from emotions rather than knowledge and research. 

    I hope it works out for the dogs' sake.  I don't have a good feeling about any of it, to be honest with you.

    • Gold Top Dog
    hapnthatch
    This sounds more like irresponsible ownership than anything else to me, no offense.
    hapnthatch
    This sounds more like irresponsible ownership than anything else to me, no offense.

    hapnthatch
    This sounds more like irresponsible ownership than anything else to me, no offense.

     

    No offense taken. I did say they were BYBs, so they were only in it for the money. They lost out on that sale, but that didn't stop them.