difference between Old Farm Collie and AKC Collie?

Maybe try searching "Working Collie" ?

IMO there always seems to be a big difference between the working and show versions of most breeds.

 Most of the responsible 'farm collie' breeders who are wokring with the pointy nosed beasts are still registering with AKC. Because of the health problems in the breed- and to pretend that 'working collies' aren't affected is ludicrous- pedigree tracking is very important. That's why I got a collie from a show breeder after losing my farm-bred collie Wings.

Check out  the AWFA.

Spazzy

Maybe try searching "Working Collie" ?

IMO there always seems to be a big difference between the working and show versions of most breeds.

Pwca

 Most of the responsible 'farm collie' breeders who are wokring with the pointy nosed beasts are still registering with AKC. Because of the health problems in the breed- and to pretend that 'working collies' aren't affected is ludicrous- pedigree tracking is very important. That's why I got a collie from a show breeder after losing my farm-bred collie Wings.

Check out  the AWFA.

Yeah, I looked at the AWFA and they discussed all about saving the Old Farm Collies because they were apparently becoming extinct while the show version Collies were becoming more popular. o.O

I am interested in possibly getting a Farm Collie when I'm older because show Collies supposedly have thicker coats and cannot deal with warm weather, which would be a problem considering that I want to move to San Diego. xP This is quite some time from now though, and I have a whole list of possible breeds that would be suitable for me, so there's absolutely no rush. I'm just curious and want to gather info sooner rather than later. Not to mention, as time goes on, my hopes for the future may change, and even if I did move to San Diego, there's no telling as of yet what kind of living conditions I might end up in.

Old Farm Collie ----->
AKC Collie ---->

cairnterriers

I am interested in possibly getting a Farm Collie when I'm older because show Collies supposedly have thicker coats and cannot deal with warm weather, which would be a problem considering that I want to move to San Diego. xP

Krissim Klaw

Have you considered a smooth collie if your main concern is avoiding such a heavy, thick coat?

 Farm Collies and English Shepherds are very close and English Shepherds a kind of a "generic farm collie" - not bred for specialized herding the way that Border Collies are. I'm not sure how many Farm Collie breeders or dogs still exist, so an English Shepherd might be a more available option.

 The other option is to get a Collie from a pet breeder who doesn't breed for show. My collie came from a pet breeder who did CERF her dogs and puppies but did not select for show type dogs. He was much more moderately coated (had just a bit more coat than my male Belgian) and had a much less extreme head and eye. He had nice drive, was super smart and an all around wonderful dog. I believe there are also a handful of collie breeders who breed more for performance/obedience that tend to have less extreme dogs. I haven't looked into collie lines or breeders for years though and was rather discouraged when I looked for a puppy about 9 years ago.

Have you seen this site yet? http://www.farmcollie.com/

 VERY e My 'pet' collie from working parents died of epilepsy. Her story is far from unique.

 I am NOT saying that you should only consider show breeders, but DO be careful with the 'farm collies' as advertised. I *do* believe most of the folks on the AWFA list are excellent. Many of them  are VERY knowlegable. But there are also a lot of people out there preying on the "AKC show collies are bad' stereotype and using dogs that are just pet quality dogs from show lines further back. Sure, none of those 'evil' show titles on a 3 or 5 generation pedigree, but if you go further back? It's there. Wings was actually mostly Parader bred once you traced her pedigree further back, something I didn't know until I started doing more pedigree research.  

Kaylee is very moderately coated and has no trouble here in the summer, although she's less interested in being really active outdoors during the hotest part of the year. She loves to swim, and we keep her coat brushed out properly. She's going to be 3 in less than two months and is far from excessive as far as coat goes.  I *do* wish her coat texture was better- but that's not unique to show collies. A LOT of it is grooming.  She has every bit as much working instinct and work ethic as Wings did, and admittedly, she was a bit unusual for her family, but there ARE collies out there that are drivey. Her half-sister Pebbles is spectacular (I tried to buy Pebbles at one point :P) and really OUGHT to be a in a working home. And their grandmother Vanna won her class at the national the year Kaylee was born, and it's NOT a line known for performance dogs.

 I adore collies. I'm not sure I'll have another after Kaylee. The health problems are erally daunting, regardless of where you look. 

Here's the difference I saw in your two photos.  One has tipped ears, the other doesn't.  The one with the tipped ears was washed and then blow dried.

 The show collies have been bred with Borzoi.  Yes, a herding dog with a sighthound bred to grab an animal by the throat and hold it there.  The reason was to get the razor sharp head of the borzoi.  Myself, I would stay away from a head that looks like a borzoi.  I would also look at herding trial dogs.  These breeders are going to be more interested in a Lassie type dog with good hips.

Maura

The show collies have been bred with Borzoi.  Yes, a herding dog with a sighthound bred to grab an animal by the throat and hold it there.  The reason was to get the razor sharp head of the borzoi

wait, i heard the opposite,. that they bred the sight hounds with collies to get a thicker winter resistant coat. maybe i read it wrong. its been several years since i've read about either one.

i wont say my way is right or wrong, but we have had mostly good luck in regards to health problems in our dogs. we've never "paid" a breeder... but we have found people who happened to have a puppy and we were in the right position to get one. my mom and i were at a feed store, several years ago, and saw an ad selling goats, and under that "puppies free to good home, border collie x sheltie" .. my mom is a huge collie fan so we drove out to have a look. what we saw was silly... the mother was a sheltie but the owner claimed she was a border collie. yeah i dont know how you can confused the two if you've ever seen one or the other!! and the father looked like an English shepherd.. marked like Lassie, but short, stocky, didnt have a snippy nose, and wasnt overly fluffy.. 

and this was what the result grew up to look like....

I never had to deal with tangles in her hair, she shed but not horribly so, and thats saying something because we live in Florida with hot AND humid summers. her temper was decent though she was nervous around strangers and strange situations, but that was MY fault because we did live on a farm.... the dogs never left the property for anything. the vet came to them for vacs. and worming. but she was very much glued to your side..... in other words she was a needy dog lol and she barked a LOT - which i think might have come from the Sheltie background - but she had ways of communicating to you just by giving you look. oh... and she also howled like a wolf. strange dog.... but a good one! If i told her to do something she would comply willingly.

 Anyway my amateur advise is to look around whenever you get there, talk to local ranchers and farmers, see the dogs for yourself, look at the parents and pups and any ancestors or previous litters if you can.... dont set your sights on anything fancy with papers and titles a mile long unless you have plans to do something with them. in fact you would probably be wise to go to a collie rescue or animal shelter and have a look around there. they get all varieties! health in dogs is a gamble these days no matter what you do. from what i can tell its just roll the dice and hope you get a winner!! like i said, WE have been lucky with most of our dogs. my mom's first collie dog was a farm collie mixed with spaniel. he was a good all arounder(she lived on a farm too) and very loyal

Pwca

 VERY e My 'pet' collie from working parents died of epilepsy. Her story is far from unique.

 My show line GSD from very well known lines died of epilepsy too. It is extremely hard to prevent health issues which are later onset and can't be tested for

pwca

But there are also a lot of people out there preying on the "AKC show collies are bad' stereotype and using dogs that are just pet quality dogs from show lines further back. Sure, none of those 'evil' show titles on a 3 or 5 generation pedigree, but if you go further back? It's there. Wings was actually mostly Parader bred once you traced her pedigree further back, something I didn't know until I started doing more pedigree research.

 My pet bred collie was from lder show lines too and within a 3 generation pedigree. In fact, all rough and smooth collies are pretty much from show lines as they have been bred for show or pets for a very long time.

 I don't think show collies or show collie breeders are evil, I just don't care for the direction things have gone even in the past 10 years. I feel the heads of many show bred collies are overdone to the point where they lose the expression that is supposed to be so important. The super tiny eyes that many have don't help the expression either. I love the look of the smooth collies still but the abundance of coat that the roughs have doesn't appeal to me. Those are personal preferences and obviously some people really find the modern show collie to be beautiful and very correct for the breed.

 I searched for months for a collie before I got my boy Belgian. I went to breeder after breeder's house trying to find a collie that had a temperament like mine. It wasn't that I was looking for a replacement for my dog but another dog of the same breed with similar characteristics. While all of the dogs had very sweet, nice temperaments they all seemed fairly low drive - they would have made excellent pets without a doubt. I had a hard time finding any that met my expectations though - namely puppies that were natural retrievers and showed decent prey drive. In the end, I bought my boy Belgian because his sire's temperament was closer to my collie's than any of the collies I had seen.

 The reason I suggest a pet breeder is that with dogs, most extreme features are quickly bred out when they aren't being selected for. Show GSDs will lose their extreme movement in just a generation or two if it isn't selected for. And collies will lose the extreme heads and coats. Temperament wise, there is no guarantee you'll get a drivey dog from a pet breeder any more than a show breeder though.

DumDog

Maura

The show collies have been bred with Borzoi.  Yes, a herding dog with a sighthound bred to grab an animal by the throat and hold it there.  The reason was to get the razor sharp head of the borzoi

 

wait, i heard the opposite,. that they bred the sight hounds with collies to get a thicker winter resistant coat. maybe i read it wrong. its been several years since i've read about either one.

 More than likely it was to "improve" head type, as it was likely done long after collies were being bred as working dogs who needed better coats. Although i supposed getting a thicker coat could have been a plus for the show ring too. It is worth mentioning though that adding other breeds to introduce traits for show or for work, was pretty common until modern times (and is still common with certain working dogs) with many breeds.

n The best evidence suggests that any borzoi crosses were done in the 1890s. And basically ALL of the 'working collies' DO come from that same pool of dogs imported wholesale, mostly from show bloodlines.

I  actually think collies are MORE moderate in the last 5-6 years than they were a decade ago, and they were at their worst in the 70s and early 80s. The problem is that the people trumpeting normal eyes, normal eyes, normal eyes? Mostly are linebreeding on a VERY few dogs who were normal eyed- but aso KNOWN spooks.

If you are looking for a true working collie,  you need to be talking to Sherry Moss ( I may have misremembered how she spells her first name).  She is in the eastern US in KY.  http://www.blueboniff.com/midwestherding/trainers.htm

I have seen her dogs and been impressed.  I have even watched her walk away with HIT at events in this region (over some pretty talented bc's).  She tends to have smooths herself, but there is a very nice dog in IN (blue merle rough).

Pwca

I  actually think collies are MORE moderate in the last 5-6 years than they were a decade ago, and they were at their worst in the 70s and early 80s. The problem is that the people trumpeting normal eyes, normal eyes, normal eyes? Mostly are linebreeding on a VERY few dogs who were normal eyed- but aso KNOWN spooks.

 Well the CERF vet I go to has said that she doesn't do collie puppies at 6 weeks any more, which was always the norm for them because with so many, their eyes are just too tiny. Even the CCA illustrates them as being nearly eyeless in the 2010 National logo:

 Obviously, not all show collies will look like that and it seems to be easier to find more moderate smooths as far as head/eye goes. But why is this look desirable at all?

 As for temperament, I have been around a lot of collies and only can think of two that had really poor temperaments - a very spooky smooth from show/"working" lines and an aggressive male out of a CH bred to pet lines. I also knew a very poorly bred female that was pretty dog aggressive but I am not entirely sure her sire was actually a purebred collie (he was registered but really didn't look like one). Out of all of the breeders I looked at, I didn't see any shy or "weird" temperaments. There is a breeder in my general region who has said that "collies are stupid" and even their dogs that I have seen are sweet. They are still a breed I often suggest for families because most seem to have good temperaments. If that is changing, that is really too bad :(