APBTs & AmStaffs

badrap

please don't anyone here tell me that you truly think that doing "bite work" with an APBT is acceptable??

SShh, relax, LOL, we are on your side! Typically I agree with you. The APBT is not the best choice for bite work. However thats not to say that there arnt a select few stable APBT's who have excelled at it with very VERY experienced trainers. I've found most APBT's who are trained for bite work are carefully housed, trained, and maintained. These arnt dogs owned by the average joe and its more to test their ability. It is not something encouraged or widespread so please........take a deep breath, LOL

If anything I think it shows how adaptable the breed is and as a APBT owner myslef, I'd never try it but because it would require a 24/7 commitment but you are doing a huge diservice to the breed by saying they are uncapable of being stable dogs involved in bite work.

Just like the APBT isnt the best choice for Shutzhund due to their lack of a "off button" but that dosnt mean highly experienced trainers dont try their hand at it. Again....I fell it is a great service to the breed to try to get them to evolve and see what they are capable of in the right hands.

I guess the most important part of these posts is the "in the right hands" bit...

I think we all know that there are very few "right hands" handling our breed out there. 

You all know how I feel about these breeds.  I have sealed my fate arguing against BSL here and everywhere else in my life.  My dogs are the best dogs on the planet and nobody is going to take that away from me.  That said, there are some things that I don't ever want them to do, and one of them is bite, or attempt to bite, a human being, even if on command, and even if they feel threatened- if they feel threatened, they can darn well outrun most threats.  One of my main arguments against BSL is that a well bred APBT or AmStaff should never bite human being, and that most attacks are provoked by extreme mistreatment, neglect, or illness.  Teaching bite work to these breeds is asking for a whole world of trouble, and probably a good way to feed the fire of BSL.

We have gone round and roung on this forum defending APBT and their cousins, and to my knowledge, we have pretty much all agreed that they are not designed to be guard dogs because they are supposed to be submissive to the human being under any and all conditions.  It's really part of the breed standard, quite frankly.

 I have a great deal of respect for the people and dogs involved with guard work and bite training.  It's a terrifically delicate balance and I mean no disrespect to anyone involved in it.  I don't know a lot about it- it's a little too intense for me.  Perhaps the whip is appropriate in specific situations, but I have a gut reaction to a dog that looks like mine straining to attack someone who has as whip in his hand... it just doesn't feel right.

**EDIT TO ADD- this is just my opinion and I realize how off topic it is, so sorry.  I can't stress enough how this is just my OPINION**

badrap

 

please don't anyone here tell me that you truly think that doing "bite work" with an APBT is acceptable?? This is a breed that has been bred for decades NOT to bite human beings.. very specifically NOT to. They can be great working dogs, but guard dogs they are not.  They are talented and athletic, but let's not try and force them into something they were not designed to do..

And I don't know a whole lot about dog training, but in my world it is NEVER ok to hit a dog, or any other animal, with ANYTHING under any circumstances.  Sorry.

They are forced into doing things they were not designed to do regularly because what they were designed to do is now illegal. I have no problem with training bite work most breeds. As long as they enjoy it. The dog is not trained to attack a human, it is working in prey drive and play mode. Check out some in your area, talk to people and learn about training. Most APBTs are not trained in personal protection, guard duty or defense of handler. They are trained as sport dogs, they would not attack a human. So they are not going against their breeding, their breeding and drives is used to play the game. Most people do not even understand SCH and other sport, which is why they find fault with it. That is true of the APBT, they have no understanding of the breed which is why they have issue with them.

The whip and stick only go so far anyway, they don't actually hit the dogs hard with them in the least. Most people don't consider a light tap hitting, they do that even in affection, pat their dog on the side. If you read above about the GSD that was pistol whipped and ran away that is because they are not hit during training or trained for confrontation. A whip/stick is barely noticed by most and the only other fighting back that goes on in training is usually just the guy jerking around and making it harder. Of course it would be bad to hit the dog during training because it is wrong, but that is why you can expect a possible unreliable dog if the situation turns to confrontation because they have never had a person do that before and don't know how to react. It also depends on the dogs nerve and drive. With more training for real life scenario and PP the dog could be more reliable (even though he still isn't hit) but most K9 Officers are not trained like that.  

badrap

I guess the most important part of these posts is the "in the right hands" bit...

I think we all know that there are very few "right hands" handling our breed out there. 

100% agreed, anyone not highly experinced in bite work who tries to train a non-guard or sport dog in bite work is a idiot, LOL

AuroraLove

badrap

I guess the most important part of these posts is the "in the right hands" bit...

I think we all know that there are very few "right hands" handling our breed out there. 

100% agreed, anyone not highly experinced in bite work who tries to train a non-guard or sport dog in bite work is a idiot, LOL

That goes for absolutely any breed, though.  And, like I said, some dogs are cut out for it and some are not (notice I didn't say breeds).  I couldn't care less about what breed they are.  Obviously there are several breeds that are more likely to be trainable in protection work, but just because this certain dog's breed is, say, a Doberman pinscher, does not necessarily mean that he is automatically going to be able to be trained in protection work.  It's all about the individual dog and the type of protection work you're looking for.

APBTs in general have a high prey drive, which makes them great candidates for schutzhund.  But just because they are good in schutzhund doesn't mean that they could do personal protection or k9 police work.  It's a whole different game and you have to understand those differences.  Obviously there are APBTs out there that could (and do) do quite well in personal protection work, but there are just fewer than other breeds. 

The point I guess I'm trying to make is that I really don't care what breed any dog is.  For me they are all individuals and just because they are "so-and-so breed" doesn't make them automatically good at some certain things and bad at others.  It's all about their individual temperament and drives. 

 true, WDL, but a lot of breeds have high prey drives, but i think a lot of people seeking to use APBTs are doing so because of the breed, not the drive.

 for some people i've noticed its an ego thing. and its those people who breed these dogs or take it a step further to PP that changes the mindset and form of the breed..

i've given up on understanding the purpose of the American Bully. the founding father claimed his goal was to bring back the gentle dog that was popular and well loved in days of yore........ then i find out he was using out crosses to American bulldogs, French Mastiff, and a few others.... that totally contradicts his original purpose if you know thing one about either breed mentioned.
 

I definitely agree with you there.  I was just trying to make the point that not everyone that trains APBTs in schutzhund is like those egotistical people that just want a "big bad killer dog."  It's really a great sport and a lot of fun for both dog and owner.  I know my boy loves it!  He thinks that it is all a big game, and that's what it is for both of us. 

As far as the American Bully's purpose...I don't know much about them... but they just look like bigger, stockier pitties to me...but like I said, I don't know much about 'em.