Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

Nope.  I'm not kidding.  I also had no intention of going to every corner of the earth to see how different dogs can look.  Obviously, dogs from different parts of the world would have differnt purposes and would be derived from different stock.  It doesn't take a genetic engineer to figure that one out.    I was speaking in general, and speaking in general regarding US dogs and AKC.   Even a GSD by accident will have pups that are very GSD in appearance.  I was talking about claimed purebred dogs (I only say that because I may not know the dogs history) that have pups that look like they came out of a grab bag.   I just don't see that in a lot of breeds. 

I know that not every... or sometimes, not any pups in a litter could be standard specific or one that could compete on a national level.  I know there are variences in size and color, quality of coat, but for the most part, one could identify the breed.  If you would have seen the Pom I saw the other day..... they couldn't have messed it up more if they had glued different dogs together.  It was strange. 

Beats me.  I need to do more research.  Genetics is a wierd world.  Not an exact one either.

I don't mean to reference this question as one regarding the show ring, AKC or any other official organization, but.............

If Poms are a specialized/stylized breed, specifcally bred down from the larger Spitz breeds to make a pocket companion, then when the breed reverts back to those genetic lines and qualities, wouldn't that make it (in this case a Pom), in fact a Spitz?  When they are consistantly no longer the size or conformation of the breed they were engineered to be, doesn't that change something?

Maybe this all gets too Darwinian.  I know we aren't dealing with Finches here, but what is the difference?  I have seen Yorkies that look SO much like their Silky ancestors that I have wondered why it is still called  Yorkie.  It still looks like a Yorkie because a Silky and a Yorkie are similar in appearance, but there are differences.  When those differences become consistant from parent to pup,  it just seems to me that at some point when that line of dogs no longer represent the breed they are claimed to be, then they should no longer be registered as  that breed.

I know it is more complicated than just labeling dogs, but it seems to me that there is far too many grey areas in the breeding and AKC world.

I noticed that too.  I have seen some Pappi's lately that looked more like long haired Chihuahua's. 

ARGH. My long message got deleted. 

First, genetics (at least hte genetics of apperance and heritability- I'm NOT going to get into the temperament debate here :) ) *IS* an exact science. Our knowledge isn't sufficient to understand all the rules though, yet.

 Secondly, the AKC recognizes a dog's breed based on genotype- what it's genes are- versus phenotype- what it looks like. A dog must be the same breed as the dogs that gave it those genes- it's parents. I could breed a sheltie that looked mostly like a collie in fairly short order - perhaps 6-8 generations (obviously, depending on whether I started with show quality dogs or not) by selecting for collie traits rather than sheltie. The breeds *are* distantly related, but even more than that, they have similar appearances to begin with.) That wouldn't MAKE it a collie, in the eyes of the AKC. Now, if someone had a very large- say, 19" (which is under the breed standard for a collie female, but it's not unknown to have girls that small pop up even in well-bred litters) sheltie bitch that wasn't registered, they could ILP her with AKC as a collie- but only after she was spayed, so that she couldn't pass any unknown genes into the collie gene pool. In registries which grant full registration on phenotype alone, that wouldn't be the case. The primary registry here in the US that is known for this is the Continental Kennel Club. You can register any dog without any known pedigree at all, just by signing a statement and providing a picture. Of course, that 'purebred black lab' who just happens to have a white toe or two (a big fault under the standard, but it happens even in good litters once in a while) that gets bred to another dog (without white toes) and produces a whole litter of heavily spotted, pointing puppies? Might be all lab- but he might also be a pointer cross. You can't always tell just by looking.

People who are in favor of this generally point to it as a way of preventing inbreeding. Well, to a large extent, breeds were created by inbreeding. If COIs are carried back far enough, I suspect most of our pet dogs would be inbred to a degree that would surprise (and scare!) most pet owners. (For example, the Cardigan Corgi- which is a VERY healthy breed, genetically- was started with a gene pool of somehting like 50 dogs originally in England- and some of those were even related!- when the stud book was created and then closed. I believe Sibes had a gene pool of about the same size here in the US. While some breeds- notably basenjis- have brought in more unrelated dogs from the parent country, that's an exception, rather than the rule- this option simply isn't available for most breeds.) On the other hand, some registries- mostly sheepdog/performance registries, I think- allow it under VERY specific circumstances- the dog must be proven in performance and very thoroughly evaluated- it's NOT just (or even mostly) looks, it's a very specific set of performance criteria.  

Hey, thanks for all that.  I hate when I have composed something labor intensive and it gets dumped.  Thanks for the second effort.

My referrence to genetics not being an exact science was more towards the genetic testing for breeds that some dog fanciers have been using to determine breeds and mixes.  I have heard some crazy stories.

In regards to the AKC.  They claim in their mission statement to have the quality and purity of breeds as a primary focus of theirs.  If that is the case, why are they so lax with registrations?  I'm not arguing whether or not dogs like Pippin are Pom's.  I have an opinion on that, based on the quality I believe should be aparent in the breed. 

If Pom's are bred down versions of the Spitz line, aren't they all genetically Spitz?  I am such a dog fiend that I have dog radar and notice all of them.  I have to say that in my area of SW Pa, I can't recall seeing one classic Pom with a recognizable breed appearance since I was a child.  There is a host of large, long legged, long nosed, beautiful dogs that look very like Pippin.  Some are much larger.  They come in red, orange, tan or black.  I have seen them around here for years.  I would have never guessed they were Pom's.  Having said that,  why would the AKC allow a collie like dog to be registered only after she was spayed so as not to introduce her into the breeding line, and these Pom-mutants all come with papers for the asking?   Should I call the Pom Police?  LOL!

I, personally, don't care.  I had Pippin neutered the minute he turned 6mo, and I did not register him.  Honestly, I would like him to be smaller, but only because my muscle problem and spinal issues make is difficult to deal with anything too large.  My Tzu is 14lbs and I struggle. 

Is there more in the Pom make up than just Spitz?  I can't say I really have heard.  As you can REALLY tell, I am not a breeder.  I don't pretend to be.  I am a dog lover, and papers are to pee on in my world :)   However, I really SERIOUSLY appreciate the world of purebreds.  I would like to understand it a bit better.   I am just really shocked by this side of breeding and AKC that seems to let anything go.  I think I would rename these dogs if for no other reason than to salvage the name of the Pom.  Maybe something like the Jack Russle and the Parson's....  Phenoranians?   I'll keep working on it :)

First, genetics (at least hte genetics of apperance and heritability- I'm NOT going to get into the temperament debate here :) ) *IS* an exact science

 
I have to disagree on this one, as genetic exchange and trait heritability/espression is actually a random process. Add in all of the natural (and induced) mutation issues and it gets even more murky.

At best, we could come up with probability models (which we have for the most part) but genetics will never, ever be an exact science.  Nature designed it othwerwise.

okay.  so I am anything but an expert concerning breeding dogs.  But I think everyone has it all mixed up here. *removed by moderator - watch the language, this is a family forum*.  Knock off the better than thou act.  First, please read this...

History: German Spitz have been around since at least 1450, when they were recorded in German literature. In 1750, Count Eberhand Zu Sayre Buffon wrote in his National History of Quadrupeds that he believed the Spitz was the ancestor of all domestic breeds. The Spitz breeds probably descended from dogs brought to the Germany and Holland, or Scandinavia, by Vikings who plundered and purged the cities during the Renaissance era. It was said that the white spitz lived in Pomerania, while the black ones resided in Würtemberg. Several breeds came from these dogs, including the Keeshond, Wolf Spitz, Giant, Standard and Small German Spitz, as well as the Pomeranian, also known as the Toy German Spitz. The toy Spitz went on to be imported in Great Britain at least 100 years ago, and was from Pomerania in Germany, thusly being renamed the Pomeranian. Today the toy Spitz and the Pomeranian are considered different breeds. Queen Victoria took such delight in these dogs that at one time they were called Victorian Poms. Many of the breeds were recorded in paintings as well. In 1899 the German Spitz Club was formed, and the breed was official. Smaller and smaller Pomeranians began to dominate the show ring in England, and some began to miss the larger breed, the Giant German Spitz. The dogs got so small to the extent that the show ring cancelled any classes for Pomeranians over 7 lbs. in the 1940s! Soon breeders became discouraged with the smaller breeds and decided to bring the Giant back. Janet Edmonds and Averil Cawthera decided to bring the standard (Mittelspitz) and small (Kleinspitz) sized breeds from their native country, and reestablished the breed once again. They arranged for the British Kennel Club to, for 6 months only, allow people with Pomeranians that had one or more of the original German Spitz dogs in their pedigrees to re-register as German Spitz.

Now perhaps you call change your tune a bit.  The pom should be proud to have Spitz heritage.  It seems crazy to me that someone goes to such lengths in this world to make such a pointless point.  We have so much other stuff to worry about without having to deal with such snobbery.

I have a German Mettelspitz.  I am proud of it.  I am proud that it's the forefather of the breed, German Toyspitz, OR more commonly known as the pomeranian.   so what?????   whoever it was who told you to get the dog off your web space, that person needs to get a life....  If you love your dog and the pom breed, then be proud of it's heritage.  It's probably a lot better than the bloodline of the person who spoke ill of your adorable dog....Put him back up, and let others who didn't know before seeing your website, that the German spitz has a noble history.... and the pom wouldn't be here without the German spitz, now would it?

Good day to you all and have a good night!!!