Tail Docking

Done at a few days old, the pups aren't too bothered by it. Yes, they bellow, but they also make a fuss when we are weighing them and checking their wee body parts. Once back in with their siblings, they usually quiet right up. I don't see the point in it as in most cases (aside from dogs with Happy Tail issues) it doesn't do much for the dog, but, i also don't think dogs spend their entire lives saying "gee, I wish I had a tail"

 I have one dog that's docked (his tail was done long before I got him), he's not a breed that's cropped, but were he, his ears would have remained natural. Legend's dews were removed as a wee youngling, as well. Again, long before he came home with me at 9 weeks. If I were to choose a breed that is often cropped, it would also keep it's natural ears, but that's just my own personal choice. I don't force my opinions on others, though. I think when done properly (and when owners are commited to the proper aftercare), it causes no issues for the puppy

also, as a vet tech, I do wish that people who DO choose to dock tails would have it done in the proper length. I can't count how many Yorkies have teensy tiny nubbins that are barely there , which leaves one nothing to hold onto when trying to access the area.

Kim_MacMillan

 There are others that are just so used to doing it, it would be hard to admit there might be fallout from the procedure, or that the "past" isn't necessarily what's good for our dogs now. There are yet others who would be happy to stop if the standard changed, but who do it for show because it's "what everyone else" does. So it's hard to make generalizations, and I don't try to do that.

"Tradition! Without Tradition our lives would be as shaky as. ... a Fiddle on the ROOF!"

...sorry couldnt resist lol but that sprang to mind...  though the best quote from that film would be "You may ask 'How did this tradition get started?' I'll tell you .. i dunno...."

lol a little too appropriate me thinks...

the cropped and docked look basically boils down to function and safety while working. it was easier to remove ears and tails before the hunt so you could stitch them and keep them clean.. if they came off during the hunt then as was already pointed out.. it hurs a lot more and the recovery time for the dog is longer, if at all.... my opinion is that unless you own and actually WORK your dog then the standard be damned. i consider cropping and docking cosmetic surgery and should be a fault in the ring rather than points.

why? because how do you know if the boxer's natural tail isnt brushy? or if it curls over the back? dunno if it would matter or not if it did.. but maybe? or if the ears are odd... for instance a Doberman's ears should be cropped but in their natural state they should look almost like a hound's ears... but... dude... what if the dog has hound ears? the American Bulldog standard disqualifies cropped ears. Docked tails are allowed but frowned upon. reason being is that you can tell certain outcrosses by the tail and ears... Ben (my Ambull/American Mastiff) looks enough like a pure bred ambull except his ears are houndlike and he has no tail, plus he looks like he could be a mix of pointer because of the shape of his face....  

in reality - outside of the show ring - standards mean diddley squat.... ask anyone who puts food on the table with the help of his working dog and he'll agree. tail or no tail, ears or no ears.... if the dog can hunt or herd then thats what makes him above the standard.

..again though... the standards spring from Tradition. its good that we debate this even if it seems redundant to a lot of us. if your dog is a pet, of if you breed pet quality dogs then please dont crop or dock it... donate that money to a shelter instead.... and same for the show ring... rewrite the bloody standard and leave the working dogs alone. 

wee_shee

As long as it is done when they are a few days old by a vet there is never a problem.

Obviously you haven't lived with dogs with phantom limb. I have. Nor have you witnessed the permanent pain that animals can live with through nerve damage, even when done "properly".

wee_shee

Most of the people who deem it cruel have no idea about the dog world and think dogs are only here to pet.

I wouldn't even normally comment on this, because it's so inaccurate, except for the fact that I know many, many working breeders that leave dogs intact worldwide.

wee_shee

Working breeds are often docked because the tail and ears can easily be damaged and take a long time to heal, if at all, rendering the dog useless in its work.

Is that because you've actually experienced it? Or because you have been reading many pro-docking websites? I ask because very few people have ever seen more than the same five pictures they post online, in which there is no evidence whatsoever that the injuries actually happened as  result of anything work-related. But regardless, again I suppose that means that BC's, GSD's,and Cardies should all be docked too right? And all of the other dozens of working breeds?

Today, my feeling of my "right to choose" is tempered by the animals right to remain natural.

Here here, I couldn't have said it any better myself (waits for the arguments then on spaying/neutering.......because it'll happen....I think I could write the book on "The Process of Tail Docking Debates, from start to completion).

Yes, they bellow, but they also make a fuss when we are weighing them and checking their wee body parts

It's funny that this is a commonly-held argument. However our pups rarely ever fuss when we are checking their body parts or weighing them (unless they experience the cold scale if the paper towel moves).  They certainly don't wretch, and scream, and tense up like they do when pups are being docked. The only time they "fuss" is if for some reason they are taken away from the milk bar and they simply want it back. Other than that the pups we've raised have always been quite easy to handle from birth.

Moderator speaking, 

This post is about the practice...it is not the place to call someone out on their beliefs. Please respect the opinions of other posters and answer the original asker's questions. Start a new thread if you want to debate with individual people or aspects of this issue.

ZBAndMe

I have noticed that some breeds such as Aussies and Weims get their tails docked by breeders before they are placed in new homes. What is the point of this? It seems unneccesary, not to mention un-natural. What are your thoughts on this?

I think it really should be up to the owner. I don't have any moral judgments against it.

Personally, I would not choose to dock a dog's tail. But I don't show them. If I did, I might change my mind. The way I see it, we make cosmetic surgery decisions about ourselves and when we take an animal into our homes, we are charged with making these decisions for it. It's part of animal ownership that we have the right and responsibility to make such decisions.

that picture is distorted because of the cameras perspective -

anyway, personally, i wish my aussies had their tails.

Have you ever seen a dog with an injured tail? A split tail? a broken tail tip?

I have. It takes forever to heal---it gets re-injured constantly and is a source of constant misery for the dog.

The breed that I am referring to has a very long, thin tail which is easily damaged because humans bred that dog to have a tail that could be used to help it steer as it ran---I am talking about the greyhound.

Am I advocating docking the tails of retired racing greys? Absolutely not. But I am trying to make the point that with some breeds there have been unintended consequences of breeding for certain characteristics. I believe that with a couple of the pointing breeds an unintended consequence of selection for the "point" trait is tails that have fragile ends.

PLEASE NOTE: A GSP's tail is not docked at the first couple of veterbrae like many other breeds. An 8 inch long GSP tail does not violate the standard! 

The tail is used for the distinctive point---why would the originators of the breed dock tails and lessen the "point" unless there was a reason for it? It wasn't done to make them look mean or anything! LOL   I think it is because GSPs are wildly exhuberant and when hunting ignore pain and discomfort. I know GSPs that have cut up their paws or legs---even a good gash on a chest---and ignored it to keep on hunting.

So the tails of GSPs were originally docked because of frequent injuries. Do all GSPs need to be docked now? especially the ones that are pets that don't hunt? I guess if a breeder knew ahead of time which pups would be going to strictly pet homes then they could skip those tails---but how to tell at birth?

As for the standard and why "show" dogs need to be docked: Unlike some breeds, "show" and "hunt" dogs are not separate with GSPs. Show dogs hunt and hunting dogs show. A litter of pups from two great show dogs might produce a couple of future CH and the rest may be hunters.

Of course there are people out there who just breed to sell the pups and don't hunt or show with them. If they are breeding purely pet GSPs I don't know why they would need to dock.

BTW I don't know the reasons for docking other breeds that no longer perform whatever job meant the tails needed to be docked.

polarexpress

Have you ever seen a dog with an injured tail? A split tail? a broken tail tip?

I have. It takes forever to heal---it gets re-injured constantly and is a source of constant misery for the dog.

Yes, I have. One was a German Shepherd male who accidentally got its tail caught in a car door. The other was a Labrador Retriever that had "happy tail" syndrome.

 Perhaps if they had both been docked at birth, that could have been avoided though. Sounds silly if you think about it.

The GSPS in Germany, Sweden, the UK and Scotland don't have fragile tails from what I have seen. Like anything, it's not hard to breed for a selected trait, after all, that's what all of our breeds resulted from. It just takes a bit of dedication and patience (aka time).

Kim_MacMillan

polarexpress

Have you ever seen a dog with an injured tail? A split tail? a broken tail tip?

I have. It takes forever to heal---it gets re-injured constantly and is a source of constant misery for the dog.

Yes, I have. One was a German Shepherd male who accidentally got its tail caught in a car door. The other was a Labrador Retriever that had "happy tail" syndrome.

just a guess.. but using what little i can remember from my first responder training back in high school... i think the reason the  tail takes so long to heal is because it is further away from the heart. same reason why frost bite occurs mostly in fingers, ears, noses, and toes.. seems the farther from the heart the extremity the longer it takes to heal..

honestly though.... removing the problem before its a problem makes sense in some cases... but the majority of boxers, dobermans, and weims are just yard ornaments or house pets.. very few of them are bouncing around in a field, chasing bulls, or getting their ears yanked by bad guys. 

the breed club requiring a chopped limb to be a standard for a SHOW is nuts in itself.. but people selling PETS with lopped off limbs is ten times as insane.