Pirate, my medical mystery

    • Gold Top Dog

    sl2crmeg
    his blood is sluggish and that's what makes them paler than normal.

    Did he happen to explain to you what exactly he meant by this?  I'm really curious--like is it a particular issue in the blood itself--like oh, I don't know say, PLATELETS or is this coming from the liver being hot and it's causing the blood to slow???  I'm just confused I guess because a hot liver is making the blood slower??  Idea

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    I think it's just the way it translates from Chinese --- not necessarily that the blood *itself* is moving slowly, but just kind of an expression? Callie? Help?!
    • Gold Top Dog

    Ummm, first off, you can't think "American" -- you have to think "Chinese medicine".  The "force" or pressure that blood exerts in the blood vessels is what we call "blood pressure".  This is NOT that.

    The Chinese also are hugely interested in the speed and how evenly blood moves thru the body.  The basic premise is that blood that doesn't move swiftly enough (sometimes it's too thick, sometimes it's encountering resistance or a problem/injury/organ malfunction -- there can be many reasons) or consistently enough thru an area or an organ is said to be 'sluggish'.  As far as the Chinese are concerned "sluggish blood" isn't doing what it should do.  Blood should carry oxygen and energy TO the cells and toxins and carbon-dioxide OUT of the cells. 

    So to their mind, if blood is moving thru an area too slowly or without the proper movement then that's an area that is a "set up" for problems.  See the external manifestation or "thing" in Pirate's case is seizures.  The Chinese aren't at all satisfied with that as a diagnosis -- they want to know WHY?  What's setting the body up to malfunction?  WHERE is the "chi" (qi) slowing down and not transmitting life force adequately.

    They looked at his entire body. Dr. Xie mentioned that one part of the top of his head was "warmer than I would want it to be", that his groin/abdomen under his hips was "warmer than it should be",  that the pulses (they don't just take the pulse at the jugular or wrist -- they literally feel pulse points all over the body and compare them to see where the blood is moving faster/slower, etc.)

    They put that together with such stuff as "dry hair coat" (noting particular places where his coat is more dry than others), the color of his gums, the color of his tongue (and often different parts of the tongue -- the very first thing any doctor of oriental medicine - human or animal - will do is look at the tongue for any sort of a coating, change in color/texture on the surface/edges/middle, etc of the tongue) because different areas of the tongue are  tied to different body systems. 

    Pirate got raced to the vet Friday morning because his gums were SO pale.  Yet his tongue was nearly purple -- his hematacrit was great (49) so why is the blood flowing well to the tongue but NOT the gums?  Again -- to Chinese medicine it's all indiciative of different things.

    It's not necessarily that the 'hot' liver is making the blood slower -- it's likely more that 'hot' indicates inflammation (or maybe an organ that is overworked or unable to function properly -- among many other types of 'heat';) and maybe one of the things that's causing it TO be inflamed is the fact that the blood isn't moving thru it properly -- so that leads them to then look for indicators of toxins, masses, etc. 

    All of this got REALLY complicated and they even lost ME (not that I"m any expert but I've heard hundreds of exams like this over the past 10 years) because since this was 'training' he kept asking leading questions like "what if this were a puppy rather than a mature dog?  what if this were a 12 year old dog?  what if THIS had been warm instead of that?

    In Pirate's situation the fact that the gums were pale led Dr. Xie to think that the gallbladder was somewhat involved -- which ultimately led to the particular decison of which herb to use.

    These are NOT 'new' concepts -- in fact (and this isn't meant to be a religious comment, just a "time immemorial" comment) in the old Testament in Leviticus it says "The life of the flesh is in the blood" -- so even millenia before x-ray machines how the blood moved thru the body was known to be critical. 

    One of the basic 'concepts' in Chinese herbals is that there are blood "movers" and blood "nourishers" and then you also support the various areas having a problem. 

    Since 'heat' is a problem in the liver area, Dr. Xie wanted her to feed a protein souce that is known to be "cooling" to the body (to help draw out and reduce inflammation -- not 'cooling' like ice).  So he suggested turkey, fish, rabbit or duck.  NOT chicken (which tends to add heat, not reduce it).  I find it really interesting that he suggested two things that are poultry and one he specifically wanted her to avoid was poultry! 

    It's really hard, Lori, to just answer a question like that because no one here really has a basic understanding of Chinese medicine.  If you are at all interested, I'd suggest Chery Schwartz' book "Four Paws, Five Directions".

    The other thing that I thot was REALLY interesting was the very FIRST thing they determined was Pirate's personality type (Chinese medicine says ANY being has a personality of some combination of the "Five Elements" -- which is sensible because one of the first things WE notice as owners/guardians is when a dog's personality 'changes'.  But in other words, what might be a glaring "symptom" in one dog might be no big deal in another.  But in that other dog it might manifest as something different.  And, like with people someone with ... to use a more common vernacular .. say an "alpha" personality might be way more prone to run something like high blood pressure -- they look at the dog's personality as a clue to what might be going on. 

    So hopefully this has explained a bit but it isn't necessarily that a "hot liver is making the blood slower" but that both of those may be a clue to where the inner problem is coming from and what to treat to ultimately help control, in Pirate's case, what is triggering the seizures to worsen. 

    But, for example, "platelets" might simply translate to "spleen" or specific areas of blood production.

    One of the HUGE things he stressed yesterday was that so often it isn't just treating a dog with herbs alone.  Or with Western medicine alone -- but that by using the combination of Western & Eastern you often get the most radical, long-lasting results.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wow, How exciting all of this must have been for ALL of you.  Well, okay, I'm sure that PiRate wasn't so thrilled.  I mean you got a chance to speak to Dr. Xhe (SP?) & have him look @ Pirate.  I'm just in awe. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm glad that the visit went well, & that you kinda have a plan to try to get the seizures under control.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Megan, from what I understand through Bear's TCVM vet, the beef is a neutral.  But turkey and some fish (cod, pollock, catfish, tilapia) are cooling.  Salmon is not, nor is shrimp.  Pirate sounds like Bear, with a liver that is too warm (false heat).  If you haven't picked up Cheryl Schwartz's "Four Paws, Five Directions" (or borrowed it from Callie), you must.  Bear's gums aren't pale, but his tongue is reddish and covered in dried sweat.  So we are working on cooling foods, which green vegetables are, so the doctor told me to feed Bear as many of those as I want.  Green beans, broccoli, kale, collard greens, spinach - the big doofus gets them all, steamed and pureed.  It's a process that helps as soon as you start, but sometimes the effects aren't obvious overnight - it can take up to six months. 

    I know how hard going through this is, but you are doing a great job.  Hang in there.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Glad the visit went well - sending good blood flow/temperature/etc. thoughts to you all :)

    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks, all!

    Tina, I think I might look for a copy of Four Paws on Amazon. I really want my own copy to have to be able to refer to! Thanks for the list of cooling foods, too - I've been trying to research that online but hadn't come up with much.

    • Gold Top Dog

    The book also lists foods that are complementary to the condition being treated.  I ordered mine from Amazon.  As you know, the seizures may be triggered by something else that is going on, which is why my vet is working on cooling Bear.  Our goal is a nice pink tongue and no seizures, or at least keeping them down to a couple times a year.  But we could get a pink tongue and overall better health and he may still have seizures, so I am trying to take it one day at a time.

    You are doing great with Pirate and he's very lucky to have you.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I am going to order a copy tonight, then! Thanks :)

    sharismom
    You are doing great with Pirate and he's very lucky to have you.

    Thank you! You are right, one day at a time. I was talking with Callie a little bit about this the other day - have you tried giving Bear a chewie like a bully stick when he's most likely to seize? Pirate's seizures have mostly been between 10pm and midnight so I try and give him a chewie right around 9:30 and I think it helps him focus his brain into an activity...who knows if it's working or not, but I know you are working hard with Bear and thought it might be worth a try.

    • Gold Top Dog

    No, haven't tried the chewie.  Bear usually starts the seizures around the same time as Pirate and I'm usually asleep by 10:00p (I get up at 5:00a daily).  I certainly could try giving him something before bed.  He's not lacking an appetite at all!  Stick out tongue

    Yes, everything I've read also says to do something to re-focus, anywhere from exercise to feeding.  Getting the pattern down is tough.  It was every 3 weeks, then we went 6 weeks, then only 19 days, and we just went by the 3-week mark yesterday w/ nothing (knock on wood). 

    • Gold Top Dog
    sharismom
    Bear usually starts the seizures around the same time as Pirate

    Weird!! Weird weird weird! Apparently (and Callie correct me if I am wrong here?!) but in Chinese medicine all of the organs work on a 'clock' and something like 11pm-1am is the liver's spot...and since they both have 'hot' livers...

    WEIRD!! :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    In Chinese medicine EVERYTHING works on the clock and the seasons.  Once you actually begin to look at this stuff it is freakin freaky how "true" some of this stuff looks.  Now some of it won't ring tru for you unless it's "personal" -- but it really does make sense.

    Dr. D always talks about how difficult it is for an elderly dog (or person) to live thru the dark days of winter.  It's a time of "sleeping" and death, short days, and it we think about it, it is OFTEN the time of year we lose the infirm or the elderly animals (particularly if you're losing them to simple "old age";).

    But there are certain things we all "know" -- like how babies tend to come during the night?  Well, Chinese medicine says there's essentially a "reason" for things like that. 

    Some things are common sense -- like if you go running after a huge meal you might make yourself have a heart attack -- but the Chinese principle is more that there are certain times of the day when organs are more "fragile" or easier to disrupt.  And some of that is likely related to cycles in digestion or rest, but much of it has to do with things like phases of the moon and the pull of the sun or moon.

    No, that's not folk tales -- think about it.  If the gravitational pull of the MOON is so freaking strong that it alters the TIDES in something as huge as the ocean ... then since our bodies are what -- something like 90% water???  Isn't it just kinda logical that gravitational pull and the cycles of the day/season/etc going to impact the body?

    Now -- if you go to the Chi Institute website http://www.tcvm.com and go to faculty -- scroll down to "S" and you'll see Cheryl Schwartz's picture.  She's out on the west coast and MAN if I was out there she'd be the lady I'd head for!!  Donna Kellaher is the other person out there who is a pretty well known author "Last Chance Dog".  (that was the first "holistic dog book" *I* ever read).

    • Gold Top Dog

    "Four Paws, Five Directions" is FASCINATING !   I loved it.   I struggle with understanding Chinese Medicine and I've read about 4 books .... my brain is just too 'western' to grasp some of the terminology in the way its meant in TCM.   But I do believe that there is basis for the theories -- it may not have anything at all to do with blood, wind, heat, etc etc etc but I believe the "connections" are correct in many ways.

    Pirate - do well sweetie cutie - I love that face !!!

    • Gold Top Dog
    I am waiting patiently -- I got it used on Amazon but paid for the expedited shipping. It should be here by Wednesday and I'm tapping my foot!