Ed Frawley of Leerburg goes positive??

This is an interesting article as well...I haven't totally finished reading it yet so I can't really discuss it, but for interest's sake:
http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

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YOWZA!

Will read the articles and come back later to comment.....  Blimey!  It's one of those sayings isn't it... like "When He** freezes over" or "When win the league" or "When Frawley uses clicker training"....

Gosh.

Thanks for posting... I will definitely read these articles!

Frawley's kind of an ***, talks big of himself, just has a very loud, headstrong personality and that's simply who he is....but yes he's a big supporter of marker based training in foundation work, as is Michael Ellis.  In fact most if not all SchH trainers worth their weight do marker based foundation training.  I've yet to meet a SchH trainer or competitor that doesn't.  I think Frawley's really one of the later ones to "get on the bandwagon".

Here's Ellis' video lectures, pretty nice summary of how he uses marker training for foundation work, and how he introduces working through frustration by learning to "yeild to the leash" (same technique my purely positive all-breed obedience trainer teaches in our beginner and CGC classes).

http://michaelellisschool.com/

Yes, I believe he says that Michael Ellis is the one that made him *see the light* when it comes to marker training.

I think Michael Ellis is the real "brains", so to speak.  Frawley has the "presence" to push the agenda and sell all the DVDs and training aids, but is he training and competing with his dogs?  Hmmmm....  I'm glad he's been open about being wrong.  Now if only he will change his views on raising a SchH puppy....

Jason L

Are you talking about the video where Frawley said NO ONE but the owner should ever touch the sch pup? (forgot the name of the dvd)

I never saw a vid but read an article and yeah, it was basically saying no one could touch it, don't worry about socialization b/c it's a "working dog" so all it needs to know is you and SchH, bla bla bla...

Thanks Jason.  I was worried about the bond thing but now I see it's a load of bull.  Your dog will bond with you if YOU make it happen.  I think the only reason the dogs will bond more strongly to each other and ignore you is if you aren't doing anything to build that bond.  As a pup, Nikon was only restricted to crates or pens when I was housebreaking and keeping him from chewing.  Other than that, he's always had access to the other dogs, the yard, and the house.  I have toy bins and dog toys littering my house and yard, and guess what he has the same if not more ball drive than all of the other dogs at our SchH club.  I let him play tug with me and other dogs and guess what, he has a full, strong grip and is on a trial sleeve at 12 months.  I refuse to crate and kennel my dog just to bring out every ounce of drive.  If I needed to resort to that then he would not be doing SchH.  I do crate or give a rest period after a session of training but this is for the dog's safety.  If he tracked, he ate a lot of food, and if he was doing ob or bitework, he worked hard physically so he needs to rest because he's a crazy, drivey dog that doesn't know his own limits.  Our club is almost 2 hours away though, so there's a built in rest period for him while we're driving home.

Lies,

Totally agree. It's like table training a dog to bring out aggression. IMO either the dog has the aggression or it doesn't. Trying to artificially create that aggression is crazy ... and I'm not even sure how effective (will the dog have the same kind of aggression when he is in a situation where he has the option to flee - like in a trial?)

 By the way, how would you rate Nikon's drive? Med? High? Drive wise, is he turning out to be what you were expecting/wanting?

So glad to hear that Frawley is making his way into the 21st century.  He and his training methods have been old school to say the least.  He admitted that himself a few years ago.  The Leerburg articles, website, forum and DVDs are good for those that have hard tempered dogs.  His methods (or maybe I can now say "old" methods) could be so detrimental for the soft tempered dog and the novice owner.

Or it could be that marker training is so accurate and efficient that it becomes evident, even to such a person as Frawley, how valuable and efficient it is, producing remarkable results, including a dog that is not afraid of you but is motivated to do what it is you want because it's win-win for both human and dog. Anyway, good for him for learning. I know it takes some strength to admit when you have learned something.

And that most SchH trainers already did/do marker training but for some reason thought clickers themselves were stupid even though they were using the same theory, just using a word and a tug toy instead of a click and a treat.  The difference is in SchH, for most dogs, food motivation does not escalate the drive to a high enough level even though it works perfectly well for AKC obedience, CGC, those types of training.  But when I tell Nikon to "platz" and then say "yes, OK!" the second his belly hits and let him lunge for the tug or ball, it's the same thing as clicking and handing him a treat, just with a higher level of drive.  I think the SchH trainers have realized that just because we need that escalated drive does not mean teaching and proofing the skills have to have a different method.  You don't need to counter high drive with a harsh physical correction or coercive methods.  I have often seen dogs being trained in other venues exclusively with positive methods, mostly marker training, with high levels of drive and said "wow your dog would be awesome in SchH!" (like Aussies, JRTs, etc).

In the end though, the people you see achieving "remarkable results" will use corrections and coercive methods at a certain point.  But IMO there is no reason why all the puppy training and foundation work would not be done using postive marker training.