Interesting read on dominance/behavior

 This thread is getting way off topic.
 

 Yes, it's drifted off and I think it's a shame.  It's not that anything is stopping anyone from posting here but the fact is, it's like interrupting a married couple's argument to offer your opinion or express your thoughts. 

Additionally if you want to have a different discussion start a new thread. Be respectful of other members which means stay on topic

thanks

Karen - dog.community moderator

 I don't think anyone is really interested in the topic anymore. I would be happy to see some of the side discussions be taken to new topics, but I ain't gonna start them and I kinda feel like no one else is, either. Oh well.

 Hi

I do apologise for getting of topic. Like every human transaction it is hard to work out whether to bail out and let it go, or say something. In hindsight I should have let it go. I am poorly skilled at determining this choice.

 I also realise that I wrote my last post poorly, and while to me it seems on topic there are links that I was making that might not be apparent to the reader. So here is a slight re-write. In UD we do a signals exercise, which is about 2-3 minutes of heeling with signals only for commands. During this the dog learns to filter out extraneous commands from the judge, the dogs in the adjacent ring and to focus tightly and clearly on us. Of course by now the human's adrenalin is flowing because we can nearly taste the pass card. At the end of this exercise we leave the dog and turn around with generally pretty grim body language and expect them to drop, the sit then come to us. A lot off dogs fail at this point. Often in times past this was seen as the dog getting uppity and it would be corrected heavily. It often started a hell of a spiral on all but the hardest dogs.

What I have found works for my dog is the opposite. I walk away, I get my body language right by telling myself a sick joke, I smile and my dog happily does the exercise. I do use assertive clear salient cues to tell my dog what to do. Often the drop particually has been seen as a sign of dominance or submission in a dog. True enough, in a dog that has an ambiguous relationship with it's owner, the drop may not be reliable, but nor will much else. What I have found over the years is that the drop seems to be just another exercise. If it has a reinforcement history, the behaviour becomes consistent and reliable.

 It's funny you should say that about the drop, because I used to think it was just something that dogs wouldn't do unless they felt very comfortable. It is common wisdom with rabbits that you can tell how relaxed they are by how long it would take them to get up to run, and I find that to be very true for most animals, so I guess that is still correct, but I have since discovered that it's not very hard to make a dog feel comfortable enough to do a drop if you have a good reward history with them. I was surprised when Kivi would do drops for me in the middle of the dog park if I asked him. My new puppy will do them if you so much as pass your hand in front of his face towards the ground no matter where you are and what he's doing. He keeps dropping when I drop things and go to pick them up!

corvus

It's funny you should say that about the drop, because I used to think it was just something that dogs wouldn't do unless they felt very comfortable.

When i first started training, the Dominance theory was pretty much it, and making a dog drop was regarded as  absolutely essential. I am sure that other forum members might have been taught to form a loop with the correction collar and to stomp hard in the loop if the dog didn't drop. The very very sad part of this is that when the dog dropped, it was "see he/she knew it all along", not it has just had a hell of a physcal shock and is stunned.

I am confronted with the difference every day. My young dog Sam is working out to be an absolute stunning dog who just loves to train with me. He presented in a similar fashion to  a dog that i saw PTS a decade ago . He was very bositrous had shocking manners and appeared to be disconnected from humans.

The dog that i saw was well in a phrase that i use went through the "standard thug up" that many trainers of those days did. He pretty much ignored it, and at the end was still very keen on jumping head high to say hello yet again. It was interrpretted as dominance agression and he was put down the next day.

In Sam's case  i pretty much ignored that behaviour and rewarded four on the floor, and he now stays on all four paws when i approach. He is fun to be with, and is just great to have. If someone had said he was or is aggressive, i would just laugh. It is stupid. The problem is that if we believe the dominance myth then we don't have room for shades of grey or other ideas of behaviour.

poodleOwned

The problem is that if we believe the dominance myth then we don't have room for shades of grey or other ideas of behaviour.

Not if you believe that dominance drives every behaviour and interaction our dogs have with us. But to say it doesn't exist at all is short sighted, too.

huski

Not if you believe that dominance drives every behaviour and interaction our dogs have with us. But to say it doesn't exist at all is short sighted, too.

I believe that i gave an example of where dominance within a dog population could exist earlier on, namely in a multi dog stressed environment. May be you missed it.

poodleOwned

The problem is that if we believe the dominance myth then we don't have room for shades of grey or other ideas of behaviour.

I wanted to highlight that phrase so that it wouldn't get buried or forgotten. A well-done observation.

And to offer contrast, I've known of a few people that have used remote collars to achieve positive things, even though I personally would choose not to use remote collars. I would rather use a vibrating collar, if necessary. And that may be from my personal experience. As an electrician, I have been electrocuted a number of times, so far, not fatally (you may use that for your relaxing phase, if you wish.) But I find electricity to be painful at times. 120 V only feels like a nerve twitch, to me. But 277 V hurts. And 480 will knock you down. And the static charge on a 12,000 W 120 V neon transformer made me say ouch, one time (improper case grounding.) So, I'm hesitant to apply even a little shock to my dog.

But one thing I do believe that offends some people is that the punishment is only a punishment if the dog sees it as such. My dog is a good example. He was raised with wrestling in play. So, when I got him and tried to correct him by scruffing and pinning him, he would "grin," relax, then get up and do whatever it was, again (usually, jumping on guests.) I was inadvertantly rewarding him because play is a reinforcer. However, a certain tone in my voice, such as when I would curse idiotic drivers on the road would make him cringe. So, I learned to watch my tone of voice and let the other drivers be idiots without my commentary.

ron2

s an electrician, I have been electrocuted a number of times, so far, not fatally (you may use that for your relaxing phase, if you wish.) But I find electricity to be painful at times. 120 V only feels like a nerve twitch, to me. But 277 V hurts. And 480 will knock you down. And the static charge on a 12,000 W 120 V neon transformer made me say ouch, one time (improper case grounding.) So, I'm hesitant to apply even a little shock to my dog.

Hi

Well we do have something in common! I often work on medium voltage dc busses,(400 odd volts) and a couple of times have truely believed that i was going to die. It is a hell of a feeling. In my case it was carelessness.

I am always concerned about the variability of shock and the vairability of how our canine friends show pain. While i am not totally against e collars, i really don't like to see them used or promoted as a primary training aid as they are now becoming.

poodleOwned

! I often work on medium voltage dc busses

One time, I was demoing a punch-down board for a pbx system and I didn't know it was still receving phone line voltage. Get across enough of the contacts and "ouch" comes to mind.

What I have found over the years is that the drop seems to be just another exercise. If it has a reinforcement history, the behaviour becomes consistent and reliable.

I think that's exactly what Karen Pryor means when she says, "It's just behavior."  Meaning (although I don't want to take words out of her mouth) that if you reinforce it, it will be repeated.  Positive trainers use extinction a lot - for the behaviors that correction trainers would feel they had to correct.  Even so called "dominance behavior" is just behavior, so presumably can be modified within those parameters of reinforcement and extinction.

spiritdogs

Positive trainers use extinction a lot - for the behaviors that correction trainers would feel they had to correct.  Even so called "dominance behavior" is just behavior, so presumably can be modified within those parameters of reinforcement and extinction.

Hi

This is pretty much the story. I was evaluating my older girls excercises, and there have been only two excercises all the way to UD where even mild "correction" was required. I tend to over state these things, but during sit stays i needed to take her back further away from me as she decided to drop during the excercise.

We also have this "go out" into a 6ft x 6ft pvc tube box followed by directed jumping. The box means nothing to the dogs, and we try all kinds of ways to get  it to mean something. Of course if you have corrected your dog off the face of the earth the box does mean something, peace and quiet:)) I can tell you that a marker is way easier, the dog does something and it has a focal point. Don't let the AKC change it. So if you have a dog like mine that is not too food orientated , very clever (not going to box, knows that you haven't put food into it) you tend to get to this point where you wont get two behaviours if you don't reward the first.

The problem is that after all this training being with you is highly rewarding.  Going to a box sitting in the middle of nowhere isn't. I just shut down the options, so it was go out and you might get highly rewarded and if you don't i will assist you to go out and there will be no reward. It worked very quickly. (three shots over a week). Of course the twofer or threeor reward is very high...

As for my younger dog, he come home with a list of classic "dominance " behaviours and all of them have been extinguished. Now that these have gone, i have a very sensitive eager to work dog...

Imagine the field day you could have had in the good old dominance days, with jumping up, ignoring commands, running away, attention barking, toileting issues, Koehler would have torn strips of him.

ron2

One time, I was demoing a punch-down board for a pbx system and I didn't know it was still receving phone line voltage. Get across enough of the contacts and "ouch" comes to mind.

 

Yep, and this voltage is way less than our friends see on an e collar and they have terminals that they can't get away form and that have much bigger contact area on the skin. They also rely on release not  from self movement but from generally someone that doesn't have great observation skills. Not a great situation.