Lupomorphizing

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: espencer

    I think we tend to bring wolf examples because thats the closest thing to a wild dog without owners, there is not a lot of streets dogs in USA, i cant come and say "hey have you seen street dogs and how they behave? thats how it is in the dog's world", no, the closest thing is the wolf documentaries on TV, thats the closest enviroment we can bring to the discussion to make the other person realize what are we talking about

    Lets set free some dogs into the streets and we wont have to bring wolf examples ever again [;)]


     
    How very insightful.  Feels like you've rummaged around in my head and put some thoughts into order that I did't know how to express then typed them on the screen!  Except for that last bit.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think it is harmful in that it encourages alpha rolls/scruffs/bites to neck in training.  Even when the evidence states otherwise.

    I think it is harmful in the pack leader aspect which the average joe takes to mean that instead of dog ownership being a partnership between animal/human, human must put/keep the dog in it's place or be dominated.

    That being said...I think it is helpful to understand the instinctual part of dogs.  That they do indeed have and operate instinctually.  Some more than others.  I think these instincts contribute to what the majority of the populace considers problem behavior. When in fact, a lot of the time it is not problem behavior, it is just a dog being a dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    ORIGINAL: espencer

    I think we tend to bring wolf examples because thats the closest thing to a wild dog without owners, there is not a lot of streets dogs in USA, i cant come and say "hey have you seen street dogs and how they behave? thats how it is in the dog's world", no, the closest thing is the wolf documentaries on TV, thats the closest enviroment we can bring to the discussion to make the other person realize what are we talking about

    Lets set free some dogs into the streets and we wont have to bring wolf examples ever again [;)]



    How very insightful.  Feels like you've rummaged around in my head and put some thoughts into order that I did't know how to express then typed them on the screen!  Except for that last bit.

     
    Thank you for bringing home the irrelevence of such a comparison to the house dog.  Such studies only serve to devalue the dog and satisfy human curiosity and the human ego to answer such questions only because they can, and once answered serves no benefit to the dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

    I just had the most intriguing thought.  Humans often justify their treatment of dogs based on wolf behavior, but would any human in their right mind try to alpha roll a wolf?  It seems to me that the selection of certain characteristics in dogs makes them more vulnerable to solutions for so-called "problem behavior" that, instinctively, humans might perceive dangerous to try if they were still dealing with the dogs' progenitor.

     
    Wow Anne, I hadn't even thought of that.  Alpha-roll enthusiasts use the justification that it is/can be the way wolves discipline each other in the wild.  The key words there are "each other" - 2 animals of the same species.  How on earth are we to know, when alpha rolling a dog, how the dog percieves that action when it is coming from a different species?  As attuned as we try to be with our dogs, they know that WE are not dogs, and I'd be highly surprised if a dog viewed an alpha roll from a human in the same way as an alpha roll from another dog. 
     
    It occurs to me now that THAT is the difference.  I have heard and read people who advocate alpha rolling say "when done properly, it doesn't cause aggression or make the dog shut down - you don't see wolves shutting down....".  Maybe the ONLY circumstance of an alpha roll being done "properly" is when it's done by a member of the same species. 
     
    To use an extreme example (and as unlikely as this is) if Ben got up on his hind legs and slapped me in the face with his paw, I would have totally different feelings about that than I would if another human being did it. 
     
    Kate
    • Gold Top Dog
    well, the keyword may very well be "perceive". Some don't take into consideration what a dog may or may not perceive, instead the focus is on the perception that the owner is in control.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: JM

    well, the keyword may very well be "perceive". Some don't take into consideration what a dog may or may not perceive, instead the focus is on the perception that the owner is in control.

     
    I completely agree that that is where the focus is, but surely for such an action to have the desired effect (showing the dog who is in control) what matters is how the dog sees it?
     
    Kate
    • Gold Top Dog
    I am not so sure that we know how a dog perceives anything.  We can speculate.

     Myself, I watch my dogs eyes and behaviors to see if he perceives something as negative or positive.

     Behaviors have been studied, on both sides of the fence and not much middle ground. Either they belong to one camp or another...submissive vs. dominance. 

    But the eyes don't lie.

    ORIGINAL: Benedict

    ORIGINAL: JM

    well, the keyword may very well be "perceive". Some don't take into consideration what a dog may or may not perceive, instead the focus is on the perception that the owner is in control.


    I completely agree that that is where the focus is, but surely for such an action to have the desired effect (showing the dog who is in control) what matters is how the dog sees it?

    Kate
    • Gold Top Dog
    "Humans often justify their treatment of dogs based on wolf behavior, but would any human in their right mind try to alpha roll a wolf?"
     
    well, the wolf-hybrid community often goes on and on about having to firmly dominant your house wolf on a daily basis, which includes regular alpha rolling. Of course they ignore the fact that wolves don't forcibly "alpha roll" each other.  
    Dogs tend to exhibit exaggerated sub-sets of wolf behavior, not the entire package of behaviors, and act more like wolf puppies than adult wolves. For example, wolves and most breeds of dogs do the "point stance" when they are deeply interested in that prey animal in the bushes-- but we have bred specific pointing breeds who lock into that position and hold it instead of moving onto the next logical hunting behavior.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wow, how do any of those people still have faces? [:o]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Interesting conversation.
     
    I am a person who thinks it is quite harmful to try to relate everything dogs do to wolf behaviour. I also get annoyed when people use wolf behaviour to describe dogs in one context, and dog behaviour to describe dogs in another, just to suit what they are trying to push forth.
     
    Coppinger's studies are fascinating studies when it comes to discussing and studying the domestic dog. If you've read him, whether or not you agree with him, most will agree it's a quite intriguing hypothesis. If you haven't read him, and you're truly interested in the wolf/dog/evolution perspective, you should read Ray and Lorna's work. It's truly fascinating.
     
    I think there is an importance in studying wolf behaviour to attempt to better understand our canine companions. But I also think we need to draw the line between saying dogs and wolves are the same, and learning the evolutionary procedure to what made the dogs we have today, and being able to compare AND contrast the differences between them. And the unfortunate thing is that there is so much invalid WOLF information out there it's hard for new people to try to begin to understand the relationship between dogs and wolves.The line we need to draw is between learning about where some of our dog's behaviour comes from, as WELL as how it has changed, from its ancestors. Not using wolf behaviour to try to work with dogs, but to use wolf behaviour to try to see how dogs have changed, to better allow us to work with dogs - as dogs, not wolves.
     
    In some ways dogs have changed very little from wolves (metabolism - dogs being firstly carnivores, as one example, although behaviourally they evolved as scavengers) . In other ways they are worlds apart. Behaviourally they are worlds apart. Physiologically they are worlds apart.
     
    I will never understand the ideology that any human can ever replicate dog behaviour, not to mention wolf behaviour. And not to mention that so many of the behaviours that humans try to emulate as wolf behaviours are TOTALLY incorrect behaviours! They make dominance look like a static, concrete, status-symbol, when in reality dominance is an extremely fluid happening. A prime example is alpha rolling - it's so over-rated in the WILD wolf community that most people don't even realize that a "true" alpha roll is almost ALWAYS a voluntary act by one animal, it is virtually never, ever, a forced act put upon an animal by another. The animal being "rolled" does it of its own choice, you will rarely ever see physical contact occur in a true "alpha roll". Even then, even IF dogs did perform some of these now know to be invalid behaviours to each other, the key point is that it happens between conspecifics - the same species. I do not for one moment think that dogs are dumb enough to think that we are dogs, even when raised from puppyhood by humans.
     
    In fact we can study feral dogs. In Coppinger's work he did just that - studied the Pemba village dogs as a contrast to the old "wolf" analogies. In some places village dogs are extremely common, and such is the way of life (and it is thought by a lot of people that THEY are the originators of the domestic dog, the prototype of the dog, an evolutionary step between the wolf and your poodle). You won't find many feral or village dogs in the Western World, or even in European areas because we humans now classify them as "strays". But in many parts of our world, dogs (yes, dogs, not wolves) are coexisting with humans in a way that some people don't even realize. They are there for the studying, more people just need to study them.
     
    Personally I feel that it is only to the dog's detriment to try to directly apply wolf behaviour to dog behaviour.  We study wolves to better learn about where our dogs come from, and to track an evolutionary path from there to now, and to understand the basis of "some" behaviour of our dogs, but also to realize how even those similar behaviours have changed over time as the dog developed. It helps to understand the beginnings if we are to understand the current, and why it is the way it is, and how it's changed from the original form/function of that behaviour.  If we want to learn dog behaviour specifically, though, we study dogs. As they will tell you the most about the domestic dog species. Just as wolves tell you about the wolf species (how many people on here have ever said "Well, the wolf got its behaviour from............"? Not too many, because people realize that to learn about wolves, you study wolves, and use the past ancestors as a guide, not a recipe).
     
    Kim MacMillan
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wonder why this is?  Why continue to roll when it has been proven otherwise?

     I have speculated on this often.

    well, the wolf-hybrid community often goes on and on about having to firmly dominant your house wolf on a daily basis, which includes regular alpha rolling. Of course they ignore the fact that wolves don't forcibly "alpha roll" each other.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    How very insightful.  Feels like you've rummaged around in my head and put some thoughts into order that I did't know how to express then typed them on the screen!  Except for that last bit.


    Wow i would swear that you are being sarcastic here. [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I was being deadly serious.  I just can't remember what you said in the first place now!  [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't understand it either. The "alpha roll" was discredited over what, 30 years ago now? 
     
    cosnider also that The Culture Clash was published in 1996, completely de-bunking the whole "dominance" approach to dog training. Yet we have a certain prominent TV person preaching this discredited, outdated idea today-- and hordes of people believing it and applying it to their poor dogs.
     
    There must be something in beating up dogs that appeals to certain aspects of the human psyche.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Oh gawd...... there was a thread on that that I mistakenly posted recently and boy am I glad it died!!!  Talk about bone of contention......  and I *still* haven't found/didn't get pointed to any solid research and/or documented evidence to support it or refute the research that was done to discredit it.  Nuff said IMO.