Taking an aggressive dog to the vet

Chuffy

Any and all animals with a mouth can snap or bite, and WILL do so if very frightened or in pain.  That includes dogs that are CGC or PAT. 

No doubt about it. The question is: Should a dog be a CGC if he/she acts that way at the vet? Still on topic by talking about taking a dog to the vet that might or might not show aggression (out of fear, socialization or whatever)

Anne is a certified CGC evaluator so she is the most indicated person for this subject. :)

Espencer, the CGC has a dog walk past (face to face) and sit near a neutral dog (a dog that will not react to the dog being tested) and has a stranger handle the dog for light petting, brush stroke, ear check, and paw check.  I guess the difference is that like you say, many dogs in the waiting room at the vet are NOT "neutral dogs" they are upset themselves, fearful and reactive, maybe even aggressive.  Also the vet is going to do a lot more manhandling than just basic grooming procedure.  I am an assistant CGC evaluator, my dog Kenya takes the role of the "neutral dog" for our club's testing and I am the "stranger" that pets and pretends to groom the dogs being tested and I get to say if they pass/fail.  All of it is way more basic and passive than a trip to the vet.  The CGC does not test a dog for "aggression", it is 10 specific test items.  So I guess a dog needing a muzzle for the vet can still be a CGC until the CGC tests a dog in these situations and makes more difficult.  At present that is not how the test is done so I guess it doesn't matter.  I don't know of any test that really pressures a dog physically like a vet appointment might, or a test that evaluates a dog's reaction to a non-neutral dog (doesn't sound like a very safe test, if there is one).  Depending on the judge, a BH test can really pressure the dog as far as crowding and uncomfortable "traffic" situations, and the ATTS Temperament Test will expose the dog to an "aggressive" person (who does not touch the dog) and more stressful environments.

I am lucky in that none of my dogs could care less about going to the vet, in fact they all enjoy it b/c they enjoy riding in the car, going places, and meeting people in general.  If I had a dog that was really stressed by it, I honestly doubt I'd put that much work into it b/c I don't see the value in doing a ton of training and desensitization for something that happens 1-3 times a year and is an impossible environment to control.  If my dog was actually biting people I supposed I'd use a muzzle (or do whatever the vet recommended) and just 'get 'er done'.

A CGC has nothing to do with a dog's behavior at the vet's office. My dog has a bite record, and a CGC (as well as several rally obedience titles). A CGC is not a title, FWIW, it's a certificate. All it means is that on THAT DAY, that dog had manners.

Thanks Liesje for your explanation, that was very helpful  

jennie_c_d

My dog has a bite record, and a CGC.  All it means is that on THAT DAY, that dog had manners.

This does not have sense to me. Clearly a flaw on the CGC process.

espencer

Thanks Liesje for your explanation, that was very helpful  

jennie_c_d

My dog has a bite record, and a CGC.  All it means is that on THAT DAY, that dog had manners.

This does not have sense to me. Clearly a flaw on the CGC process.

No prob.

It's not really a flaw in the process if you look at what the CGC is.  It's 10 specific test items.  The evaluator(s) only get to see how that dog behaves on that day in that environment.  For example, the last CGC I did I passed a dog because it passed the items I was testing, even though I have seen the dog in other situations and know this dog is what I would call overly shy and fearful.  But he got through the test on the day it was given.  This is why I personally test my dogs more than once.  Kenya has passed three times, at three different locations with three different evaluators and I am confident I could go get her right now and she would pass.  Even Coke has passed twice (and failed once) under different testers.  Nikon passed the STAR and will take his first CGC in a few weeks.

I think too many people put too much stake in the CGC.  For example, I've seen breeders use it as a "title" to prove breedworthiness and I don't agree with that at all.  I think the purpose is for the owner.  It shows you where you are doing well with basic training and where you need to improve.  I put Nikon through a mock CGC a few weeks ago and he did fine on the test item I was worried about (passing the neutral dog) and failed one that we've done a hundred times (sit-stay at 20 feet).  The CGC is something that I think should be attainable by any owner keeping a pet dog, but I don't see it as anything beyond that.  It's not something that promotes the dog for breeding or anything like that.

I understand where you are coming from but at least as far as I am aware, there is no test that examines the dog in a way that you have in mind.  Would it be valuable?  Yes.  But it's just too dangerous, intentionally exposing dogs to reactive or aggressive dogs and painful manhandling.  I would not put my dog through such an evaluation unless *I* decided which dogs and which people performed the test, but that defeats the purpose of an objective, controlled evaluation.

If you are looking for a test that focuses more on inherent temperament rather than training, I think the ATTS Temperament Test is better than the CGC.  The dog is exposed to several things that commonly startle dogs or insight a fearful/aggressive reaction (umbrella in the face, thrown metal pail of rocks, gun fire at close range, an angry person yelling and waving a weapon, walking on strange surfaces, etc).  Also, the TT takes breed standard into consideration so what reaction may get a passing mark for a Chinese Crested may be a failure for a German Shepherd.

Emma has passed the CGC twice, now, and could easily pass it again. It's far less of a test than any of her rally titles, on the obedience side, and the friendly stranger part is nothing for a dog that's basically friendly and well socialized (and she is, both). My younger dog has both her STAR Puppy, and her CGC. I would never put either of them through a real temperament test, like Lies is talking about, because it would be tremendously stressful, and neither would "pass" or grade well. Emma is a fear biter, and Ena is extremely soft in temperament, and would end up crying crocodile tears, begging to be held.

A CGC *only* means that the dog has basic manners, and is sort of friendly. That is *it*! Emma, the dog with the bite record, plays "friendly dog" in CGC tests, because she's totally non reactive to dogs walking near her. She sits or lays beside me, looking slightly bored.

And she isn't, for the record, a vicious beast of a dog. Extraordinary circumstances relating to a human that forgot that dogs are dogs. It happens, on occasion, and we get reminded in various ways.

espencer

jennie_c_d

My dog has a bite record, and a CGC.  All it means is that on THAT DAY, that dog had manners.

Why not?  Any dog could have a bite record for any number of reasons.  A dog could bite an intruder burgling his masters house.  A dog could snap at a child who relentlessly teased him, cornered him and forced lego bricks in his ear.  A dog could snap at someone trying to help them, purely because they are in huge amounts of pain....  

espencer

Chuffy

Any and all animals with a mouth can snap or bite, and WILL do so if very frightened or in pain.  That includes dogs that are CGC or PAT. 

No doubt about it. The question is: Should a dog be a CGC if he/she acts that way at the vet? Still on topic by talking about taking a dog to the vet that might or might not show aggression (out of fear, socialization or whatever)

Anne is a certified CGC evaluator so she is the most indicated person for this subject. :)

Well, since you asked....I do think that the vet clinic is a special circumstance.  Often, when a dog goes there, s/he is not being met by "neutral" dogs or "friendly" strangers.   The CGC is really a test of how the dog responds in the *normal* circumstances of being out in public, not how they behave in extraordinarily stressful situations.  So, to pass, a dog is expected to be under the control of the handler, not show aggression to benign humans or dogs, and be able to perform some simple manners skills - stay and come, for example.  Specifically, the CGC rules say that a dog is not a good citizen and must be dismissed from the test if it "growls, snaps, bites, attacks, or attempts to attack a person or another dog" during the test, which, again, suggests that the dog is not of sound temperament.  Think of it this way.  If you went to the store and there was a robbery in progress, you might club the robber if he tried to hurt you.  But, you certainly wouldn't go to the store and walk up to some benign stranger and pop him one just on general principle.  Nowhere in the regulations does it ask an evaluator to query the handler about how his dog reacts at the vet;-)  The only item that is somewhat similar is the one where we brush the dog to simulate grooming.  That usually is enough to tell if a normal dog is fairly at ease in a situation where someone has to work on him who is not the handler.

espencer

Thanks Liesje for your explanation, that was very helpful  

jennie_c_d

My dog has a bite record, and a CGC.  All it means is that on THAT DAY, that dog had manners.

This does not have sense to me. Clearly a flaw on the CGC process.

How did we get so far off topic? This feels like a personal attack and has nothing to do with this post.

That's too bad.

Oh well, then a CGC dog is not as great as i thought it was

nfowler

How did we get so far off topic? This feels like a personal attack and has nothing to do with this post.

Wrong:

espencer

Should a dog be a CGC if he/she acts that way at the vet? Still on topic by talking about taking a dog to the vet that might or might not show aggression (out of fear, socialization or whatever)

*content removed, baiting*

I think it's a interesting point to bring up, honestly. Would it make a difference if the dog bit before OR after getting tested? Casey has a record.... but - I am confident with some really in depth training- he could pass the CGC now, not before I got him - but now, as in today.

And - if I did not feel that I could leave my pet in the trained hands of my vet and her tech - I would be walking right back out the door to find a new vet. They are the trained professionals - not JQ Public. THEY know how to react in an emergency situation, they know what is right, and what is wrong. Althoug I am a trained surgical technician and trained and practicing vet tech, I would never insist on being with my pets during surgery. Each clinic has it's own rules, and regulations, not to mention insurance policies.

I'm going to go a tad further off topic.....Chuffy??  Who is that beautiful horse in your avatar???  Stunning.

Just for the record, an OPINION is just that.  What someones FEELS.  That is neither right nor wrong in any circumstance.  Just because we might not agree with it, doesn't make it wrong.

Seriously, I asked how folks can justify not being in the OR with family members...the human ones....but not their furry family.  I've relinquished my Mother, Father, husband and both my sons to medical specialists and paced and prayed during their surgeries.  And if I can't have that much faith in my VET, well, I need a different one.

I am hoping that the OP has gotten the ideas she needs and is able to report back that everything went really well.

espencer

Anne is a certified CGC evaluator so she is the most indicated person for this subject. :)

Still seems rather personal to me. You got great information about how the CGC evaluation is run from many owners of dogs with CGCs (mine included though I didn't post CGC info) and from other CGC testers, so . . . Maybe you have some specific advice about getting through vet vistis with snappy dogs who are there to have, for instance, their arthritic joints manipulated?

Moderator Speaking...

The baiting in this thread and off topic chatter needs to end NOW. Edits will be made on ANY further off topic responses and may be made to those deemed to be baiting in nature prior to this notice.

Think before you post...you're the only one who will answer for the posts you choose to make.

nfowler

Maybe you have some specific advice about getting through vet vistis with snappy dogs who are there to have, for instance, their arthritic joints manipulated?

uh, i already did