What training method do you recommend....Why?

tex123

How do you introduce/teach the out command to a puppy as opposed to what you do get him off the sleave? also do you use both halter and leash?

I don't know b/c none of us are there yet (my one training friend's dog is almost a year and is on the full sleeve and doing long bites but no outs, and my breeder's dogs are already trained and titled in SchH so they out but were trained in Germany).

To get my dog off the sleeve, he wins the sleeve and we do a victory lap around and around until he gets sick of carrying it and he drops it.  We just keep going around the lap to the start and the helper picks up the sleeve.  There is no commanding the dog off the sleeve or physically removing it from him.

For bitework I use a harness with a lead and a flat collar with a lead.  When he's doing the agitation I am holding the harness lead.  The harness allows him to lunge and bark without choking him or putting pressure on the throat.  Then when he "wins" the sleeve for a victory lap I pick up the leash on the collar and use that to run him in circles so I can help keep him moving along and keep his head up.  Some people only use a collar but I think it chokes the dog during the bitework and I like to encourage all the deep barking.

Yeah.. right....sure they would.

Thakns again Kim. I meant to ask you about "premack" could you please elaborate? Also, can you  or anyone help me figur out just what it is about the dog whisperer that makes a lot of trainers uncomforable? me included. is it that "calm assertive energy" may not work when the dog is off leash at a distance?

I advocate applied behavior analysis which is essentially behaviorism.  However, I am aware of and appreciate the interaction of nature and nurture.  In fact the two are so closely related that if they were living organisms I would consider them to by symbiotic.   The past history of both the dog and the human will color training.  There are techniques from multiple disciplines that can be evaluated and selected and rejected based on the impact on the dog's behavior and the likelihood the human can learn to strategy to a level of automatic implementation (which will require inhibition of the other strategies for the same outcome with different dogs or in different situations). 

It is that ability to evaluate the strategy's impact and likelihood of handler maintanence that seperates really good trainers of people who own dogs from people who are really good at training dogs.

tex123

Thakns again Kim. I meant to ask you about "premack" could you please elaborate? Also, can you  or anyone help me figur out just what it is about the dog whisperer that makes a lot of trainers uncomforable? me included. is it that "calm assertive energy" may not work when the dog is off leash at a distance?

What makes me uncomfortable is that his strategy is basically physical correction/coercion and flooding, two things that I personally do not agree with and don't use in my training.

The whole "calm assertive energy" thing is nothing new, I mean, you won't find any good trainers that disagree with that idea or the "exercise, discipline, affection" mantra...it's how he applies his ideas that I have a problem with.

tex123

Yeah.. right....sure they would.

?

Please tell me you're not one of those people that believes a dog is forever tainted for training in drive, lol.

Thanks MRV, for a good response, I think that is my biggest problem I have trouble switching methods/stratigies smoothly, but I am working on it.

Thanks lies, I agree, blocking the dogs behaviour suddenly for reasons he dont understand will, I think tend to build what is referred to in "Natural Dog Training" as "Social Resistance" and the dog will be less likely to obey off leash

Who me ?? Let me put it like this, I would be more likely to be bit a untrained GSD than a trained one, that said, GSDs are guard dogs, and guard dogs guard, I will remain outside the gate until the handler arrives thank you. (tail between legs)

Well you are correct on one count.  All GSD bites I have witnessed, heard about, or been involved in myself have been "pet" type dogs (no training, or nothing beyond a puppy class).

However I disagree that GSDs are guard dogs.  In my experience there are many other breeds much better suited for guarding property.  My GSDs spin and whine at the door if I leave them outside.  They are not allowed to guard or claim possessions or property, those belong to me and I decided who goes in or out.  If I catch my dogs guarding they are in trouble with me!

I've seen a lot of barrier aggression across breeds.  In fact the worst offenders in my neighborhood are a Pointer, two Shih Tzus, and a Beagle.  That is not "guarding" though, these dogs are barrier aggressive.

, Well, I always heard they were originally bred to herd/protect livestock. If your dogs will not gaurd their/your property it is probably because you trained them that way. Does that make them more keen on protection or what? Any way I don't go into any dogs territory that I don't know unless the handler is present, And if he looks like Jethro from the "Beverly Hillbillies" and says "Oh he don't bite!" not even then. Of course if YOU said it was ok i would go in..... but I wouldn't get too loud or make any sudden moves :)

tex123

, Well, I always heard they were originally bred to herd/protect livestock. If your dogs will not gaurd their/your property it is probably because you trained them that way. Does that make them more keen on protection or what? Any way I don't go into any dogs territory that I don't know unless the handler is present, And if he looks like Jethro from the "Beverly Hillbillies" and says "Oh he don't bite!" not even then. Of course if YOU said it was ok i would go in..... but I wouldn't get too loud or make any sudden moves :)

They were originally bred to be a versatile working dog, either herding or police/military.  They are not an LGD, they do not guard/protect lifestock.  They move and control the sheep, which is why they need to be correct size and structure, agile, and have a soild, courageous temperament (in order to run into 1000 sheep and bite one to get them all moving).

GSDs that are too guardy and barrier aggressive are generally just GSDs that are bored and somewhat neglected, often they have nerve issues and are fear aggressive.  They want to be with their people DOING something but instead are left out on their own, so being energetic and smart they make their own things to do which are generally naughty things like barking at people or digging holes.  Also, being barrier aggressive is somewhat self-rewarding.  A person walks by, a dog barks, the person keeps going by b/c he was going to anyway, but to the dog it looks like they made that person leave.  Again any dog can be like this, the worst offenders I know are not GSDs.  This is not something that should be allowed or encouraged, especially from a GSD.  Just because they are used in defense type work does NOT excuse this behavior.  It's a training/management issue as well as a temperament issue, not something we want to see from a solid GSD.  My dogs are not barrier aggressive, but no I did not have to train them not to be.  Nikon will bark at you but he barks at his own tail and his own reflection in the mirror.

Thanks for the info.

Premack's Principle basically states that a less desirable (or probable) behaviour can be reinforced by a higher, more probable behaviour. Basically, you are using a behaviour to reinforce other behaviours (rather than treats, or tug, or petting). For instance, I have used this quite a lot with Gaci's loose leash walking and focus. Gaci's "focus" on me is generally the less desirable behaviour compared to hunting in her environment. So I can teach her to pay attention to me, with the reward of "going free" to interact with her environment. At first I might only ask for a second of attention before releasing, but now I can ask her to focus on me for the entire length of the yard (1 acre!) before releasing her. She has learned that doing what I want (focus) gets her what she really wants (environmental sniffing).

Or, Gaci's contacts in agility. She has a contact trainer that she loves. basically it's a yellow plank on two steps that she practices her agility contact on. It's her favorite thing to do, and she will elect to do it on her own if she is able to. I have used the behaviour of "contacts" to reinforce some lesser-known or lesser-fun activities by getting her to do a certain set of jumps, and then sending her to the contacts to do her behaviour  there.

It works very well, and it's a little lesser-known than the typical reinforcement of food, treats, and social interaction. Getting to perform another well-liked, well-known behaviour can be very reinforcing for dogs.

I don't have time to respond to the rest, as I'm headed off to work, but I will get back to you on why I choose not to use that television show as a guide or reference in what I do.

Thanks much, I have been using that method, or something similar, for years (just didn't know the technical term) such as putting a leash on a leash shy pup before going outside (more desirable) in a few days pup starts looking forward to the leash.