Training help desperately needed!!

I taught sit, down, shake, and speak when my pup was 9 weeks.  It only took one or two sessions for each command, maybe 3-5 minute sessions.  He knew each one in a day or two.  I didn't use the clicker for those commands but use the same principle.  Those behaviors are easy enough for me to simply reward without a marker, I can basically give him a treat the instant he sits or downs so I don't need the clicker/marker to train those things.  I typically only use an actual clicker for two reasons: 1) I want to do a chain of behaviors or repeat a behavior, such as heeling, so I'm click/treat, step step step, click/treat, step step step, etc; or 2) I cannot give the reward within 1 second of the behavior so I need the clicker to mark the reward.  An example would be a recall with distance.  Initially, when I call the dog's name I am looking for him to acknowledge that, simply turn his head.  So the first thing I mark and reward is the dog being alert to my call, but if he's 40 feet away I can't just reach out and give him the treat, so I click as his head turns and then he gets his treat.

You can use a clicker to teach the "out".  I won't, but I'm training for Schutzhund and my dog absolutely will not be encouraged to out until he's a year or more.  If he was my pet I would simply teach it by marking it.  When he drops the object I say the word, mark the behavior and reward it (maybe a treat, maybe giving the object back).  Or, I would have two of the same and trade.  This is how I do it now in order to play games and build drive, but I'm not naming it or marking it yet.

I can see the logic of it.  The dog learns to work more for the sound of the click than the food itself and what was the primary re-enforcer (food) gradually becomes secondary to the click. Is that right?

Have you read Schutzhund! by Susan Barwig ? Also it sounds like you have some kind of background in Psychology?? 

Now that I think of it I used somthing similar with my old dog tex. After his morning meal I would take him out and when he started to circle i would start clicking my toungue and continue while he did his business (Classical Conditioning) and in this way taught him do poop on command ( or within minutes of when i started to click)

Clicker training is just operant conditioning with a slightly different behavior sequence following the preferred or desired action.  It can be used to teach just about anything.  Some folks feel you will not get great results in herding and hunting.  I do know some folks use it in part of their protection training.

In the beginning, the first few behaviors may be a bit slower.  This usually has to do with the timing of the trainer/handler not the technology.  What clicker training typically produces is a dog that is a problem solver.  They learn they can get their needs met  "turn on the cookie machine"  by offering behaviors.  They are more likely to attempt to please you than sit/pause and wait for direction.   Clicker training actually helps you become a better trainer because the dog's behavior serves as feedback to the clarity of your communication.  In most cases, training to the clicker and what it means occurs with random behaviors you select.  In my basic obedience classes, most my folks can get a dog to walk into a hula hoop on the ground and sit within 3 minutes.  These are cross trained dogs who were not started on clicker training as puppies.

 The likelihood of extinction is not dependent on the clicker.  The clarity of the signal/command, the specific generalization of that command to multiple environments and the reenforcement schedule will determine how resistent a behavior is.

tex123

I can see the logic of it.  The dog learns to work more for the sound of the click than the food itself and what was the primary re-enforcer (food) gradually becomes secondary to the click. Is that right?

Have you read Schutzhund! by Susan Barwig ? Also it sounds like you have some kind of background in Psychology?? 

You can give a reward without a click but you cannot give a click without the reward, the click is the marker not the reward.  So it's the opposite, if I'm using the clicker to train something I phase that out before the reward.

No, I haven't read that, I don't like to read training books.  Schutzhund is something that is very specifically tailored to each dog and my TD decides how to work my dog.

 I have a clicker, but the four-five month old female rescue mutt I am keeping for a week is so submissive im afraid she will flop on her back and start peeing all over herself at the sound of it. should i introduce the sound at a distance when i feed her in the morning so she associates the clicker with a positive event?..or should i gamble that she wont panic and mark her approach to the food? i need to illicite some response other than submission so that I am not marking/rewarding the submission itself. This is the most timid and submissive pup i have ever encountered. am i wasting my time? (pound rescue) I suppose the question is can i use clicker to train confidence?

Thanks, Henry

 You can buy an "i-click" which makes a softer noise than the traditional box clickers, then wrap it in a hanky and click from behind your back to muffle it a bit.  With a really shy dog, I usually try to "charge the clicker" by clicking and tossing a treat (such as real roast beef or chicken - shy dogs often refuse less appetizing treats, so you are trying to really pair the noise up with something wayyyy cool).  After about 20 reps, I put the clicker away until the next day, and begin with a behavior the dog already knows, such as "sit".  I use my regular hand signal and when the dog sits, C/T.  That way, the dog starts realizing that the correct action is what makes the trainer click.

There's a really good set of preliminary skills, and how to train them, on www.clickerlessons.com .  Just remember your A,B,C's - antecedent, behavior, consequence.

tex123

BTW I can make a perfect "click" sound by creating a vaccuum between the roof of my mouth and my toungue and then dropping the tip of my toungue suddenly so that outside air rushes in. Try it. You will always have the clicker handy.

Oh yeah I was smart enough to think that too - let me tell you it does not work.  At least it didn't for me.  The only reason I can think of is that this simply isn't as precise - it's not as quick and it doesn't sound precisely the same to the dog (even if it sounds the same to us).  I mean, I can click my tongue in at least three different ways.

I like clicker training.  I don't use it for everything and it does have its shortcomings, but I do like it.  I see some shortcomings discussed which are actually myths and sure I'll counter those - I'm not a fanatic by any stretch, but I will counter what I see as misunderstandings.

Thanks I will try the softer method.

Also, not every one is into training the strengthening of prey drive and some of us depend on having it not quite so strong. And even prey drive training is still based on operant conditioning. The dog is rewarded for effort or desired behavior.

ron2

And even prey drive training is still based on operant conditioning. The dog is rewarded for effort or desired behavior.

It is, although there is often some element of frustration involved which isn't typically seen in other forms of "purely positive" operant conditioning type training.  Using prey drive to train works really really well provided you have a dog sound in temperament that will work through the frustrations.  Some dogs can't work through frustrations and reach a plateau, others can just get out of control.

I am convinced there is more going on in the dogs mind whose drive has been developed to it's full potential than can be explained by the known process of conditioning....like reasoning. Its like he learns by known process but at some point he will "take over"and start learning on his own, I can't explain it, just a feeling I have.

tex123

I am convinced there is more going on in the dogs mind whose drive has been developed to it's full potential than can be explained by the known process of conditioning....like reasoning. Its like he learns by known process but at some point he will "take over"and start learning on his own, I can't explain it, just a feeling I have.

Let me put it this way. My dog is a mix of Siberian Husky, but he is primarily Siberian, even if he doesn't look like Demon from "Snowdogs." Siberians, as a breed, are noted for prey drive against cats. As in, cats go good with ketchup. Well, mine grew up with cats, and we have a cat, and I'm glad his prey drive towards cats is muted. That doesn't mean he doesn't get excited and enjoys prey drive. Sometimes, after seeing dogs walk down the street or a squirrel run across the yard, chasing the kong allows him to express the "chase and get it" thing, which is rewarding, not only as an activity but as a survival mechanism. And he does catch and kill cotton rats. Which is rewarding, ergo, a mix of classical conditioning and operant conditioning. Don't hate me because I'm logical. It's a curse.

tex123

I am convinced there is more going on in the dogs mind whose drive has been developed to it's full potential than can be explained by the known process of conditioning....like reasoning. Its like he learns by known process but at some point he will "take over"and start learning on his own, I can't explain it, just a feeling I have.

I think it depends on the context.  I am thinking of the context of Schutzhund training, where the drives used are a pretty inherent part of being a dog, but their applications are not.  It's a very stylized sport.  Yes, there's prey drive, but dogs don't know on their own how to target the ball rather that the string, the sleeve rather than your face, or that the faster they out the faster they'll get another bite.  We take the drives and use them to our advantage in training and what we want the end result to be.

The speed with which a dog learns a new task when following his prey instinct is much faster than he would learn with operant conditioning alone (without the drive) therefore their must be somthing else going on that we don't know about, something to do with the drive itself, a form of heightend awareness bordering on telepathy. imho

When the dog is charged with excitement and focused on a prey object, he will obey a command with a speed that wasn't learned via conditioning. It is the way he chooses to obey the conditioned command. Its as if he has learned the PURPOSE of the command on his own, by some form of elemental reasoning or something. if conditioning were all there were to it, then, it seems to me he would learn all tasks at the same rate of speed