another nail in the "alpha dog dominant pack leader" coffin

Theres a hell of a big difference between "pack leadership" and being aggressive with your dog?  Exponents of pack leadership such as MIllan preach calm assertion, not beating your dog and growling at him.

mudpuppy

Several confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43%), “growl at dog” (41%), “physically force the release of an item from a dog's mouth” (39%), “alpha roll” (31%), “stare at or stare [dog] down” (30%), “dominance down” (29%), and “grab dog by jowls and shake” (26%) elicited an aggressive response from at least a quarter of the dogs on which they were attempted.

IMO, that's abuse- not dominance.

mudpuppy

elicited an aggressive response from at least a quarter of the dogs on which they were attempted.

I'm surprised at the 75% that did not respond aggressively.

YellowOx

Theres a hell of a big difference between "pack leadership" and being aggressive with your dog?  Exponents of pack leadership such as MIllan preach calm assertion, not beating your dog and growling at him.

Granted, he doesn't preach beating or growling, but the act of laying a dog on its side is a physically confrontational technique that he does use, and can be perceived by dogs as aggression.  The fact is that most dogs do not respond aggressively and appear "calm, submissive" because most dogs are subordinate by nature.  It's when you really have a "red zone" dog staring back at you that those techniques often backfire.  And, I've said it here before...there just aren't that many true red zone dogs.

As a trainer, I can attest to that part of the study regarding the snatching of things from dogs' mouths.  Even when not done in anger, which it often is (how much did you say those Ferragamo shoes cost ya?), the dog perceives that humans always want what is his (dogs think anything that's on the floor for the taking is theirs).  So, some of them start to get hostile, and guard their stuff.  Almost every time I have a food guarder or a "stuff" guarder, the people handled it by taking the items away forcibly, which got them in even more trouble.

Thats why people should be always calm and assertive. No doubt that if you are aggressive the dog will react the same

spiritdogs

And, I've said it here before...there just aren't that many true red zone dogs.

Agreed, we have to also consider that the difference between me and a firefighter is that i havent seen a lot of fires in my life

spiritdogs

the people handled it by taking the items away forcibly, which got them in even more trouble.

That's why you dont use force, for the dog to give it to you the dog must release it himself. You dont pull or push

espencer

That's why you dont use force, for the dog to give it to you the dog must release it himself. You dont pull or push

I agree totally with that sentence and I'm glad you see the value in that, too. In "25 things about your dog" in General Chat, I point out how, even though I started drop it with lure/reward, Shadow has been offering it for sometime now for the rewards I give. He even brings me different things, which I encourage, so that drop it will generalize, so to speak.

The article talked about some owners who hit the dog. It did not say that CM supports that. Nor did anyone here imply that, to my knowledge. However, the other point of the article is that these mistakes some average owners make is out of a misunderstanding of dominance and a misunderstanding of a dog's social motivation. Even CM himself has said that not all dogs are trying to be pack leader. Which means that viewing each problem as a move for dominance is erroneous. That is, if, pulling a number out of my hat, 95 percent of all dogs are not trying to be pack leader, then their problems shouldn't be treated as a move for dominance. And, in so doing, one shouldn't approach the solution as one of obtaining social dominance over the dog. I think that was another point of the article. And we should always remember that a dog does something for a reason. That reason is motivation. So, we can motivate them to do other things.

This article, along with others from equally respected scientists also show that much of the behavior seen in various canids is not about social or physical dominance but is instead interaction in a family unit, even an extended family unit.

I can't be Shadow's parent. I am the wrong species and I wasn't there to sire him. Which is not to say that he can't be led by someone he was not born to. His first model of behavior and leading figure was a GSD named Bonnie. She didn't like many men and she was, by all description, 90 lbs of "you will wish to God you had never met me" if you crossed her but she was also gentle in her ways and never had to get physical with Shadow. Shadow's first owners wrestled with him, so he grew up playing rough. A year later, when I'm trying to correct him with holds and physical punishments, it sent the wrong message. I'm fortunate that he has inhibition but also fortunate that he saw such things as the scruff and pin as play, and not threatening at all. It was Ron's "Keystone Kops" version of training.

ron2

A year later, when I'm trying to correct him with holds and physical punishments, it sent the wrong message. I'm fortunate that he has inhibition but also fortunate that he saw such things as the scruff and pin as play, and not threatening at all. It was Ron's "Keystone Kops" version of training.

From the very start... any corrections for Gibson excites him and makes him worse.  He tries to get you to play rough all the time. To stop him and hold him.... he just waits until he is let go..and continues.   Even outside playing with a ball..or now throwing snowballs. He will at any time include you in his play and fly thru the air at a me. We have to watch him because its dangerous.  Mostly we just keep throwing snowballs or the ball.  When we take him out to do his business a lot of time he tries to get you to play and starts jumping and barking.  No one has every taught him any of this.

"Of the 140 surveys completed...Several confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43 percent)."

Sad, so sad.

spiritdogs

As a trainer, I can attest to that part of the study regarding the snatching of things from dogs' mouths.  Even when not done in anger, which it often is (how much did you say those Ferragamo shoes cost ya?), the dog perceives that humans always want what is his (dogs think anything that's on the floor for the taking is theirs). 

Gee...I have always taken what I don't want my dog to have out of their mouth.   I have gone the LEAVE IT way over and over....and it only works occasionally. Meanwhile they are eating something that might make them sick and I'm standing there saying "leave it!"

I don't think so.

I still keep trying when I can, when what he has is not important. Such as when we go for walks...and I see something I KNOW he is going to grab such as a cigarette butt....and I say "leave it" and he does...and I praise him or give him a treat when I have one. But once he has one in his mouth,,,he is swallowing unless I get it from him.

Gibby for instance....we spent many weeks teaching him "leave it" with treats. The ONLY time he will leave it is when you have a treat...and that is sometimes.  Even outside playing with a ball, only way I could get him to drop it is with treats. What the heck.....I'm standing out there with a pocket full of treats and talking him into dropping it, so I can play with him!    I gave up and got a soccer ball that I kick around and he can't pick it up. Well at least he couldnt last summer.

dyan

Gee...I have always taken what I don't want my dog to have out of their mouth. 

I'm like you. I can use "leave it" to stop him before he actually grabs the item and I can use "drop it" once it is in his mouth (unless it is something he wants to eat). Food he will not drop. I swear I have jammed my hand half way down his throat to retrieve an old chicken bone he has picked up off the street on more than one occasion.      

denise m

dyan

Gee...I have always taken what I don't want my dog to have out of their mouth. 

 

I'm like you. I can use "leave it" to stop him before he actually grabs the item and I can use "drop it" once it is in his mouth (unless it is something he wants to eat). Food he will not drop. I swear I have jammed my hand half way down his throat to retrieve an old chicken bone he has picked up off the street on more than one occasion.      

You are both lucky.  Some dogs never become guardy.  But, coincidentally, about three hours ago, I did a private consultation with a family who can "take kibbles out of ***'s mouth", and the dog will also trade or drop any food item.  He has, however, recently started to growl and lunge at them if they try to take away a cloth item or kleenex.  The only difference is that they taught him to trade for foodstuffs, but they chased him down and pried his jaws open to get cloth/kleenex, because those things were forbidden items that they thought could hurt him.  Little did they know that they were really training him to guard cloth items.  Oops

Nope. Not another nail. Just another biased exercise taken to the extreme which simply shows some folks don't know the difference between violence and leadership.

The demeanor and mental state of the human doing these things to these dogs would be interesting to see.

No cookie for this sad piece.

Angelique

some folks don't know the difference between violence and leadership.

Many more don't see the value of motivation over coercion either.  You don't have to be violent to be a non-leader.

spiritdogs

You are both lucky.  Some dogs never become guardy.  But, coincidentally, about three hours ago, I did a private consultation with a family who can "take kibbles out of ***'s mouth", and the dog will also trade or drop any food item.  He has, however, recently started to growl and lunge at them if they try to take away a cloth item or kleenex.  The only difference is that they taught him to trade for foodstuffs, but they chased him down and pried his jaws open to get cloth/kleenex, because those things were forbidden items that they thought could hurt him.  Little did they know that they were really training him to guard cloth items.  Oops

YIKES!  But Anne, but its true that some of these dogs are going to eat the object while you are trying to sweet talk him into giving it to you.   Bubblegum was great about dropping things...but she did'nt often pick up things like that.  She would get very tense about a bone or occasional rawhide...which I would talk her out of with a major treat.  Of course I would do the same for Gibby.  However being a young dog..he picks up just about everything...or you might catch him chewing a stuffie and believe me...first oppertunity he gets and ITS GONE.  One "leave it Gibby" gets him chewing or swallowing faster.  So I don't mess with the "leave it" on those sort of things.  I quietly go get it....( as Denise says....I have reached half way down his throat for it ) and then I tell him what a good boy he was for giving it to me.    He could care less about me taking his food either,,,, and he has tried to protect a rawhide... here or there and I give him bones all the time and I can see him get a little tense when he thinks I am going to take it...but I alway give him something in it place also.  He is funny...he gets a fresh bone in the bathroom in the morning when I work......and lays and chews it the whole time until I am ready to go. Meanwhile I am having coffee and yogurt.    When I am ready to go to work, he drops the bone to lick out the yogurt container. 

I am also always bothering him when he is chewing something, even pretending I am going to chew on it with him.....just to show him he doesn't have anything to worry about.   EXCEPT for when he is going to swallow something that is going to hurt him.