Positive Training Overload?!

I don't think this is about too much positive it is about your employee being a know it all collage kid with no experience.  Where I work we embrace MBA programs and let me tell you some of these kids are so by the book they know the books not the fundamentals. They can't even speak to clients properly and know how to manage expectations etc.

She doesn't seem to have respect for you and your methods in YOUR training facility and she wants to do it her way and prove she knows it.  It seems like your a positive trainer as well and as a trainer and mentor you should pull her aside and speak to her about under minding you around YOUR clients.  She should not be questioning or preaching to you and trying to teach you. If you are teaching method she cannot agree with or feel comfortable with she should find another job.  She works for you and should follow your training protocol.  This is more about your management style.  Maybe you should enlighten her and "teach" her that there are many other ways "positively" to do things beside ignore.  Ask her is she was taught negative P for example, body language etc and that you would want her to explain and work with clients on those aspect as well (for example) and explain that Neg P positive P etc are all parts of a training protocol and should be explained in detail and when they can/should be introduced and how to use them and that is something you want to teach your clients when necessary and you expect her to teach them with the all the knowledge wrapped up with it.  Better yet, when you see a training issue you think can be handled differently you need to step up and tell her you want her to now introduce X to this client.  It is your business and you have built a reputation based on your training style and she needs to follow your instructions.  She learned all the aspects in training and should not just pick what she likes and discard the rest.  Good luck with this and hopefully you can help make this new trainer as good as you are. 

If she wants to preach positive to your client go for it, helping people understand that positive works and force doesn't is great but you don't need the preaching.  You need an employee to help you roll out and work towards what you want for your clients. 

Spiritdogs is a positive trainer and hearing her perspective on this would be ideal for you.  I am sure that although spiritdogs is a positive trainer she has 101 things in her box that are positive and can be used besides ignoring and she would gracefully teach her new employee and explain when those methods should be introduced.  .

Okay so I gave you the example how she refuses to demonstrate craddle & massage because she says it's mild animal torture... .... ?!

She refuses to do demonstrations that have to do with using a correction "tone" such as "ah-ah!" etc etc... ?!

She does not believe in any correction. Ignoring is the only way. Ignore ignore ignore. Don't speak, don't move, ignore...

I have no idea what "craddle n massage" means, but um, I agree with the rest. "Correcting" dogs, whether by tone or other method, is contrary to good dog training practices. You teach the dog WHAT TO DO, use management to prevent the dog from doing things he shouldn't be doing until he develops good habits, and if he does happen to do something you don't like, you ignore him (negative punishment) to avoid accidently reinforcing the bad behavior by offering attention (even angry attention is a positive reinforcer for most dogs). The best dog trainers use "corrections" rarely if ever. Usually "corrections" are reserved for the "compulsion" phase of training of working dogs, which most pet owners have no need to even think about; or, if a pet owner has been deliquent and allowed the pet to develop unpleasant habits you might, after thinking long and hard, decide to use a correction.

It's in the newness.  Just smile and remember we all had that passion when we first learned something awesome.  If she's getting in the way of your getting things done, explain in a quiet and smiling way about the concept of "learned helplessness" and that it's possible to put a person there, also. 

I've never known a long-time and well-experienced positive trainer who didn't understand the importance of balance and the role of "punishment" meaning inputs that extinguish behavior.  For one thing, even negative punishment is still a punisher (ie, ignoring is technically intended as a punisher in this context).

brookcove

I've never known a long-time and well-experienced positive trainer who didn't understand the importance of balance and the role of "punishment" meaning inputs that extinguish behavior.  For one thing, even negative punishment is still a punisher (ie, ignoring is technically intended as a punisher in this context).

I'm so glad Becca pointed this out.

 A punishment does not have to be harsh, it can be rather benign, but still enough to show the dog that a certain behavior does not work, and that an alternative behavior works better - and, as we know, dogs, like many other predator species, do what works.  What positive trainers really aim for is to teach the dog through communication, without fear or pain.

For those who haven't heard the term, the "cradle and massage" is a technique used to convince puppies (up to age 16 weeks) that recumbent restraint will happen to them during their lives, and it isn't going to kill them.  The idea is that if the pup is still, he gets a massage, and if he struggles, he is just restrained, and that the handler never gives in to let the dog down until the dog is quiet.  Some pups do struggle and act as if they were being killed - some even scream.  Those pups are often labeled "dominant", when in fact some are and some are just scared to death.  But, I find that leadership can be accomplished with the control of resources, and that once a dog realizes that you are in charge, it's usually not necessary to force them onto their backs.  So, I don't do this in my puppy classes, although I used to work for someone who forced me to demonstrate it.  I'd be willing to bet that many owners never came back to a second class if their dogs were screamers... so what was really accomplished???  Needless to say, I don't do it, and have not found that my clients have needed it.  What I think is much more important in puppy class is helping owners teach dogs to relinquish special objects earlier in life, so that they don't get guardy about their pig ears...so if they really do have a more "dominant" type pup, he learns early that the human is really in control of the stuff in the house.

spiritdogs

For those who haven't heard the term, the "cradle and massage" is a technique used to convince puppies (up to age 16 weeks) that recumbent restraint will happen to them during their lives, and it isn't going to kill them.  The idea is that if the pup is still, he gets a massage, and if he struggles, he is just restrained, and that the handler never gives in to let the dog down until the dog is quiet.  Some pups do struggle and act as if they were being killed - some even scream. 

What like - restrained on their BACK?  Holy mary!!  No wonder some pups scream.  It must be a terribly frightening experience.  I am all for teaching a dog to accept al kinds of restraint, but there is NO REASON to avoid doing it the way you teach any behaviour; ie. in small positive increments.  Sheesh, most people are able to teach a dog to play dead with a handful of treats, how difficult is it to teach the dog to do that FIRST and then gradually accept hands being laid on him, all over?

Corrections are way over used.   I agree with MP that the working dog world is a bit different, although even there many trainers are using less and less corrections, even viewing P+ as a sign of failure on the part of the handler, and STILL getting good results.

So yeah, I still think there is no such thing as "too positive" and new does not ALWAYS mean clueless.

Chuffy

spiritdogs

For those who haven't heard the term, the "cradle and massage" is a technique used to convince puppies (up to age 16 weeks) that recumbent restraint will happen to them during their lives, and it isn't going to kill them.  The idea is that if the pup is still, he gets a massage, and if he struggles, he is just restrained, and that the handler never gives in to let the dog down until the dog is quiet.  Some pups do struggle and act as if they were being killed - some even scream. 

 

What like - restrained on their BACK?  Holy mary!!  No wonder some pups scream.  It must be a terribly frightening experience.  I am all for teaching a dog to accept al kinds of restraint, but there is NO REASON to avoid doing it the way you teach any behaviour; ie. in small positive increments.  Sheesh, most people are able to teach a dog to play dead with a handful of treats, how difficult is it to teach the dog to do that FIRST and then gradually accept hands being laid on him, all over?

Corrections are way over used.   I agree with MP that the working dog world is a bit different, although even there many trainers are using less and less corrections, even viewing P+ as a sign of failure on the part of the handler, and STILL getting good results.

So yeah, I still think there is no such thing as "too positive" and new does not ALWAYS mean clueless.

Yes, that's right, supine.  Of course, in fairness to the lady who forced me to do this, she didn't ask that we just yank the dog over on its back.  It was done gently and slowly, but still too fast for me.  I ascribe to your point about "small positive increments", and now that I'm on my own and not "watched" (yes, she employed spies LOL), I'm doing things the way I think is appropriate, which does not include "cradle massage" as described above.  She was pretty positive for her era, but still not convinced about clickers and wouldn't let us use them in class either - no wonder why the students thought our dogs were so much better trained.  *wink* Some of us were using clickers at home!

oh, yuck. I can't believe people still feel the need to forcibly restrain puppies like that. What a horrible way to start out your relationship with your puppy. Destroy all trust from day one. Teach puppy "our relationship is based on the fact that I can and will physically force you to do anything I want you to do and you need to learn that resistance is futile." 

Ok, I'm fully on the side of this "too positive" person and think the OP's training center needs to reconsider its methods. Methods that were acceptable in the 1950's have mostly been abandoned as a bad idea by most educated people.

I'm in favor of teaching a pup or even an older dog to relax while restrained.

Let's face it, sometime, somewhere, at the vet's or in an emergency a dog will be under less stress if the feeling of being restrained is not a foreign one.

Classical Conditioning.

Regarding the "too positive" newbie. Give it time. Things will either settle into a more rational and realistic use of the method, get balanced and incorporated with additional philosophies, or (yikes) go the other way.

Time will tell...

It's really funny but an old Scottish shepherd I know, who is about the last thing from positive and gentle in his approach, would agree with this.  He thinks the worst thing you can do to a puppy is to go out first thing and get a cute little collar and a matching leash. He doesn't mean you ignore leash laws or the safety of the puppy, but his point is that one shouldn't start with the leash, but rather teach the puppy what you expect first, then the collar and leash will be no more than a bow to convention.

Angelique

I'm in favor of teaching a pup or even an older dog to relax while restrained.

Me too.  But this method is not the only - nor the best - method.  TEACHING the pup to accept handling by building trust and using - ha ha - positive reinforcement - is far preferable to using force, however benign, IMO.

I'm still with the "new girl" on this one.  I think a lot of people have been pretty unfair about her and dismissed her ideals just because she is new, whereas it may be just as - if not more - beneficial to appreciate her refreshing approach and try - *just TRY* what she suggests and see if the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  It's not as if what she is suggesting is going to do any harm in the vast majority of cases.

Nicely put Becca, I could not agree more.  30 years ago it wasn't uncommon for trainers to just stick the collar and lead on and tie the pup to a static object and let him fight and struggle until he gave up and accepted it (maybe praising and petting him when he calmed down?).  Sure - that's ONE way of doing it.  I see this cradle and massage as the same thing.... Just a fast way to get where you are going, and likely trample any trust he has in you in the process.  Why not choose a gentler "more positive" method?  I don't get it.

brookcove

For one thing, even negative punishment is still a punisher (ie, ignoring is technically intended as a punisher in this context).

Yes, totally agree! I think that we can all get a bit holier than though. I am not a keen user of NRM's (and I think that they are a mild P-) becuase they signify failure for some dogs and they can confuse. I am not against  them becuase they are a punishment. For example (becuase I tired) if I tell my mini that she jumped over the worng jump, then to her she may interrupt that as I don't want her to jump. Best to let the lack of reward tell the story. In some ways, I think that if you are peppering NRM's around at UD level, you may not have the right dog/relationship to get through. I don't know.

I think  that it all gets a bit complicated. It is sort fo OK (Morgan Spector) to scruff shake a dog when it runs away from you,which is P+. pure and simple.

we are often OK about using P- but wrongly used it is a devastating tool for dogs and humans. It is often too long and poorly timed.

I am still saddened by the entrenched attitudes that exist. If you have a look at my Avatar, you will see a picture of my now deceased Lab at 13 1/2 when he became a tracking champion. When he was a puppy we got reccomended a belt and biff trainer by all the locals and he literally put him on his knees. I still feel the guilt of putting him through this and the subsequent Jerk and Pull training for two more years, but I do get some relief out of helping absolute handfuls in doggy classes. That belt and biff merchant got Cadbury to be subdued in about 1/2 hour or so. I can get the same highly charged Labs to calm down in 8-10 minutes walking nicely with rewards and to be very happy.better still, both dog and handler understand what is required. I am not super trainer just observant.This method is not second best  to any, it is the best.

People sometimes seem to think I have no training objectives and train haphazardly, but in actual fact my training objective is to simply facilitate communication. I want to build a communication bridge that is more than just yes and no, but is rich in subtleties and context. I use NRM with Kivi because he seems to prefer to know what not to do to help him narrow down what to do. He gets frustrated quickly and needs that clarity in "yes" and "no". He doesn't care much about NRMs, though.

I've been trying to teach him the concept of "less" and "more" lately using small hand gestures and the same one but enthusiastic and exaggerrated. I don't know if it's working, but it's fun. I got as far as getting him to lift his paw a small amount and lift it a large amount using variations of the same hand signal.

I am keenly aware of the pitfalls of clicker training when you are just starting out. If I get too carried away with what I want, I can fail to realise he's getting bored or frustrated.  

corvus

People sometimes seem to think I have no training objectives and train haphazardly, but in actual fact my training objective is to simply facilitate communication. I want to build a communication bridge that is more than just yes and no, but is rich in subtleties and context. I use NRM with Kivi because he seems to prefer to know what not to do to help him narrow down what to do. He gets frustrated quickly and needs that clarity in "yes" and "no". He doesn't care much about NRMs, though.

I think that you covered one of the key issues of NRMs and that is that they are dog specifc in function and also seem to have a training lifetime. My poodle packs a sad and wants to go home if she isn't doing the right thing. Your dog will be different

I think that the clicker combined with body langauge will work. The clicker is a bit binary but dogs are just such extraordinairy readers of body language. My old lab could read an index finger point at 20 odd yards to indicate whihc jump to jump. My poodle can be even more unreal.I can easily move her a foot at a time when i am 20 meters away and get her to do the whole sit down drop stand thing. You learn from your mistakes that sometimes signals work the opposite of what you think. If you use fast signals on some dogs they seem to go what on earth are you on about where as others follow suit. This principal may be your key. This training is meant to be fun. Who says it has to have a purpose or an end or be linear? Some of the very best trainers I know jump all over the place chnage plans at the drop of a hat. What they are being is dog centric.