Letting dogs *work it out*

If it's a "fair reprimand" by one dog to tell another dog off for being rude I don't intervene. In your scenario though it sounds like Gaci is out of line and you should attempt to prevent her from acting like that so the other dog doesn't have to reprimand her.

I think dogs are FAR better at reading each other and helping establish certain limits, socially, provided the dogs are pretty well balanced.  The only time I've ever had to intervene between Kenya and Coke was maybe once or twice when we first got Coke he would give a nasty growl at Kenya if she walked too close while he was eating.  For that he got a stern "no!" and me taking the food for a few seconds, then giving it back.  He is 26" tall and was only 48lbs at the time so he was a hungry dog who had been rehomed and then dumped back at the rescue.  Now it is not an issue.  The only bad vibes I see between them are if Kenya is not feeling well and Coke tries a little too hard to initiate play, she will show her teeth and walk away.  I never correct for showing teeth.  Coke, being well socialized with dogs and people, clearly reads this signal and leaves her alone.

With other dogs, I'm pretty much the same way.  First of all, I don't usually let my dogs off leash with dogs that I'm not already fairly comfortable with.  Between the two of them, they have probably a dozen regular play mates.  I've been able to observe these dogs and the owners so I am comfortable letting the dogs go.  I typically do not intervene unless a scuffle continues to escalate, or a dog that I think is more timid is being continuously roughed up.  For example, last week we met with some friends and their GSD pup and my SIL and her Basset pup.  The Basset was game for anything, but the GSD was more timid, not quite sure of himself.  He watched the other three wrestle and would run out and then run back to us.  Kenya loves puppies and kept trying to engage him but he was a bit overwhelmed by three new dogs that already know each other.  He seemed to prefer playing with the Basset instead.  While there was never an actual confrontation or a puppy wimpering, I tethered Kenya to the fence for a while and let the GSD pup get more acclimated.  Normally I don't even intervene that much, but with a young puppy I want him to have positive experiences with other dogs, not be timid and fear them.  Ironically, the reason for the meeting was b/c this GSD puppy had been bullying other pups in his class, so our breeder asked that he come play with my adult dogs who are great with other dogs but won't let him get away with puppy shenanigans.  Straight out of the car, he jumped on Kenya's face.  She showed her teeth and he did it again.  She gave him one quick snap and that was that.

Our breeder and us like to use Kenya with other dogs because she doesn't really hold grudges.  She will tell a dog "no" when it is appropriate, but will not become aggressive and will play with the same dog 2 seconds later.  She doesn't let puppies and rude dogs jump all over her or other dogs, but she has great bite inhibition.  Her corrections are well placed and well timed.  There have been a few times at the club where other dogs have lunged for her or barked in her face.  She shows her teeth, turns away, and ignores the dog.  She can communicate that their behavior is inappropriate, without being lured into a confrontation.

So I guess in general I let the dogs have a try first.  I don't like doing stuff on lead anyway.  If things escalate and don't recover, I know how to control both of my dogs without using collar grabs, and again, I don't let them run off with just any strange dog until I'm confident in the other dog and owner.  Doesn't mean they have to be best friends, just that I feel both of us owners can control dogs if need be.

Luckily though, neither of my dogs has been in a fight or started a fight, so I guess you could say I haven't really been tested yet... 

Great topic!

Sometimes I let dogs communicate and settle their own arguements. Sometimes an older dog is simply teaching a younger one social skills (manners) or their place within the group...before the pup gets serious about asserting their adult place in the social order, at around two years of age.

A communication growl of "Don't bug me!" is different from a growl that says "I am targeting you...". A play growl or a temporary squabble vocalization is different from a predatory, attack growl. IMO

I think there are different approaches depending upon the dogs and any given situation. There are a lot af variable factors including their ages, new dog vs established dogs, dogs who may be frustrated, socially unskilled dogs, dogs who are confused as to their place within the social structure of their household, etc...

There is also the dog's intent, hormone level, and mental state to consider.

Add to that the behavior of the humans the dogs come in contact with, and I don't see one absolute answer to your question! 

How old is Gaci?

With us its depends because my pack is so diverse.  Kee is 16 and extremely *elderly* (her little back looks like a zig zag now) and she's tiny as a peke.  Billy's the oldest at 8-9 and defiinitely the one most apt to snap (and he has, and usually he'll pick on Kee even if he's really ticked at Luna or Tinkerbell!).  Luna is likely the strongest at 4. 

I generally let them all settle everything UNLESS it looks like someone's out of control and then I intervene FAST simply because Kee is so fragile, Tink is fast but tiny and Billy, bottom line, is at the most risk health-wise.  Because my pack is so diverse size and age-wise AND health-wise I can't afford to let anything get out of control because injury could be fast and/or deadly. 

Kee is also at that stage where there's definitely some dementia and frankly, she could try the patience of a saint anyway.  She moves ultra slow and will sometimes just stop, mid-step and almost fall over or look around like "huh?  now WHAT was I doing anyway?  Hmmm -- how come I'm HERE?" so she is going to miss ANYONE's cues or warnings.  That, in a nutshell is what makes it dangerous for her. 

Luna is probably the most social creature I've ever known - she could write the dog manual for "body language" and demonstrate it all for a video.  She was reared in dog-daycare and reads other dogs unbelievably well.  She is a large dog in a small dog's stature.  She tends to tell ME when trouble's brewing. 

 She's alpha enough to convince Billy he actually wants to do "THIS" and then she convinces him it was all HIS idea anyway and what a hero he was for thinking of it.  (yeah, her lips move when she executes one of these maneuvers - it's pretty hysterical to see her manipulate him) 

Tinkerbell thinks Luna is the bestest thing on the planet and would do ANYTHING Luna told her to.  So mostly it has to do with watching Kee and keeping her out of trouble.

 My dogs seldom have words, so I leave them to their own devices. The only time I usually need to intervene is at play group if there is a squabble and the dogs seem to be escalating.  I'm more likely to do it quicker so that the owners don't get nervous.  In general, my own dogs are pretty much self-policing.  Once in a while, one of the older dogs gets sick of Sequoyah being such a haunt, and they tell her off so that she doesn't herd them any more.  The hound is good at that.  Sioux is much more tolerant a dog.  Not much bothers her.  She's content to let others have their way, except if its my coffee cup LOL.

Sorry, but I'm of little help here. When my 2 fight, there's not posturing, no growling, they just go into instant attack mode. That probably sounds hard to imagine, but it truly happens in the blink of an eye and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that unless they're stopped, they'll do serious harm to each other. I wish they would have squabbles. It would be so much better.

My residence dogs always have to contend with new foster dogs coming here and the foster dogs here have to contend with new foster dogs come here.  So "having words" and "working it out" is all part of the new pack dynamics where there is new partnering, pairing of playmates and working on fulfilling the belongingness need.  My experience tells me there is a safe way to "having words" and "working it out".  My residence dogs are stable and they "work it out" vocally, touch, and use their body language to express their feelings.  They immediately stop the play and then rely heavily on social isolation.  My residence dogs have never been involved in a fight. 

On the other, the fosters seem to come here with the notion that fighting is the way to "work it out".  A lot of the fosters usually get into a scrape with another foster.  But it only seems to happen one time and in the beginning of their stay here.  My dog care philosphy says touching when in an aggressive state is not tolerated by me, I will interfer.  I watch very closely for retaliatory reaction if play gets rough.  What I want to happen is flight to take precedence over fight, given there is an escape.  So when two dogs behavior escalates into a fight, I do what I have to do in order break it up....I introduce fear in both dogs.  So far a second fighting event has not occurred here and coupled with the foster dogs learning from the residence dogs, the entire pack reaches a stable state and all  get along great.  It happens time and time again here. 

I feel strongly that dogs ought to be encouraged to look after themselves. And I feel like intervening is often like diving to the rescue when a kid gets bullied or something like that. There's a point where everyone has to learn to deal with others. Sometimes those others are bullies, or obnoxious, or just not your type. So Penny can totally deal with bullies, dogs that are posturing at her, or acting aggressive... she can pretty much deal with anything short of being charged. She can because she's had the opportunity to learn.

With Kivi, he's a bit of a wuss and at this point he doesn't seem to have an aggressive bone in his body. I've seen him playing hardball with some of the dogs at the dog park and not really enjoying it, but still not telling the other dog in terms it can understand. I and the owners in question did not stand around and let them work it out. We intervened when Kivi started to whine. I made sure he could get sanctuary at my feet. He now plays hardball with the best of them. Unfortunately, he has forgotten how to play gentle and thinks when Shani my mother's Sheltie puppy starts growling at him and fending him off that they are finally playing. We let Kivi harass Shani until she tells him to get lost, then we hover and block him when he tries to grab her. We make sure she can get away from him and that she isn't overwhelmed, but also encourage her to make herself understood to KT. She wouldn't be driven to do that and therefore KT would be unlikely to ever learn it if we just picked her up and kept Kivi away from her all the time like she wants. The more we keep Kivi away from her the harder he hits her when he finally gets the chance.

Anyway, when it comes to arguments, I let them work it out unless it looks like someone might get hurt. Penny gets roused on when she picks on Kivi for no reason other than that she's frustrated and feeling ill-inclined towards puppies. I often put her out or bring Kivi into the lounge room and leave her out. She thinks it's worth it most of the time. That's okay by me. Kivi gets over it and learns when to keep clear of her. I assume he is learning because it happens less and less. Of course, Kivi is yet to have words back. I know with Pyry if you intervene before he feels like he's had his say, he'll try to finish what he started for the next 2 days. He has a long memory. The options are, let him do it or keep him away from the dog he's cross with until he forgets about it. I lean towards letting him have his say right from the beginning as once he's done that it's all over with and we and the dog in question don't have to live in a state of hyper-alertness until he either gets over it or finishes what he began.  

I dont let them "work it out" whatsoever, i take care of the whole situation myself, the time bewteen letting them "work it out" and a really bad fight can be less than a second, if one dog is violating another's personal space and that other dog growls then i redirect the growl AND remove the other dog away, that way i'm showing the growling dog that i'm there to take care of it (in case the growling dog is having a bad day already) and i teach boundries to the other dog

You can have 2 stubborn dogs and if you let them "work it out" you will have bad fights all the time because niether will back away, you might have one trying to step up a hierarchy level becuase the other dog is getting old, then you will start having problems

For safety reasons too, you dont know if the dogs decide to "work it out" while there is a kid around, they didnt come into an agreement and then the kid is between 2 dogs fighting, not to even mentioning that one dog one day might decide to "work out" something with a kid

I dont "delegate" discipline to avoid mistakes and vet bills, not to mention liability; my dog is not aggressive but he might have bad days too and there is a lot of ignorant people out there as well as rude dogs that are not well socialized, my dog knows that i'm there to take the best decision  helping him with what is bothering him so he does not have to use his own methods if that dog/kid/thing/person is not getting the message

Outstanding post, Liesje. It reminds of things Dunbar has said. What people often think is aggression between dogs is actually a feeling each other out sort of thing and, to borrow from the non-linear dog theory, the dogs in question are developing a "vocabulary" with each other. This is what is acceptable, this is not acceptable and it is rife with correction and reward. The correction, as it were is the bared teeth or air snap. The reward is the play and inclusion in the group.

ron2

Outstanding post, Liesje. It reminds of things Dunbar has said. What people often think is aggression between dogs is actually a feeling each other out sort of thing and, to borrow from the non-linear dog theory, the dogs in question are developing a "vocabulary" with each other. This is what is acceptable, this is not acceptable and it is rife with correction and reward. The correction, as it were is the bared teeth or air snap. The reward is the play and inclusion in the group.

 

Right, this is why I probably wait to step in.  I see a lot of people interfering in what was simply play to begin with!  Often when my dogs are out, the neighbors sit on their deck and watch them "fight".  As I described earlier, the dogs have never even had so much as a scuffle, nothing beyond Coke giving a growl two times with food and Kenya showing her teeth the first few days he was home.  They even play with toys together and have never had a problem.  When I first got Coke I thought Kenya was either being aggressive or bullying him, but I learned how dogs play and it became apparent that Coke is typically the instigator and even when Kenya sits on his back and pretends to bite his neck, he circles back and jumps at her to start again.  There have been three times I can think of when my dogs were playing with other dogs and I intervened.  One I already described (tethering Kenya to help the pup get his bearings, not because Kenya did anything to him).  Another time as I described in a previous thread, Coke was trying to bully my friend's dog Justin.  To this day I don't know what that was all about because they spent the afternoon back to back while I sat at our club's table at the Animal Festival and they barely paid any mind to each other.  The third time Coke was playing with another GSD Samson.  Both dogs got a little too excited and started growling at each other and sort of pushing on each other.  We body-blocked and pulled the dogs away by their hips.  After a few minutes of time-out, both dogs continued playing and never had another problem.

I think the key is just knowing how your dog plays and knowing a bit about other dogs before allowing them to play.  My dogs are very rough and tumble.  They make a lot of contact by chasing each other down and biting on the neck or back leg and lots of hard body slamming.  I've observed that other dogs are more content to simply chase each other back and forth.  So I'd never take one of those less physical dogs and turn it loose with both of my dogs at once.  Aggression is not the issue so much as respecting the lowest common denominator as far as the play styles.

Also I think for certain dogs it is downright dangerous for the human to correct a dog's correction.  As I said, I do not correct Kenya showing teeth.  She never, ever growls.  Showing teeth is basically her growl and it means "please stop" and is usually accompanied by her ignoring or trying to get away from whatever made her uncomfortable.  Every trainer, GSD fancier, and behaviorist I've talked to has told me NOT to correct this because if I squash it out of her, she might reach a threshold and go straight to a bite.  I'm not saying she's a biter; the contexts in which she shows teeth are when other dogs are being absolutely rude and jumping on her, that sort of thing.  If I yank *her* away, then that only teaches her to be nervous and anxious around other dogs.  I let her tell the other dog it was being rude.  If the other dog escalates, I will just call Kenya over to me and do something else.  I don't manhandle or correct other people's dogs even if deserved.

 Right on. My dogs know how to talk to dogs way better than I know how to interpret that talk. Nine times out of ten when Penny "has words" that's all it is. She doesn't even make contact. When she does make contact she doesn't break the skin. The only time she has broken the skin is the time Chloe nearly took her eye out. Yes, it can get nasty, but really, that is not common with a well socialised dog. Chloe was not a well socialised dog, and there were other contributing factors to her behaviour. Penny made contact with me once when I got in between her and Chloe as she was snapping, but she pulled herself up so fast she didn't leave a mark on me despite the fact that my hand was half the distance to her than Chloe was. I find that it pays to trust your dog in most cases. I intervene when it's not talking so much as harassment or bullying. I usually let the victim tell me when they need my help. In my experience, risk of injury to dogs or humans is extremely low, and I've seen situations where it is extremely high, so I feel like my risk assessment is probably pretty well-informed.

espencer

I dont let them "work it out" whatsoever, i take care of the whole situation myself, the time bewteen letting them "work it out" and a really bad fight can be less than a second, if one dog is violating another's personal space and that other dog growls then i redirect the growl AND remove the other dog away, that way i'm showing the growling dog that i'm there to take care of it (in case the growling dog is having a bad day already) and i teach boundries to the other dog

You can have 2 stubborn dogs and if you let them "work it out" you will have bad fights all the time because niether will back away, you might have one trying to step up a hierarchy level becuase the other dog is getting old, then you will start having problems

For safety reasons too, you dont know if the dogs decide to "work it out" while there is a kid around, they didnt come into an agreement and then the kid is between 2 dogs fighting, not to even mentioning that one dog one day might decide to "work out" something with a kid

I dont "delegate" discipline to avoid mistakes and vet bills, not to mention liability; my dog is not aggressive but he might have bad days too and there is a lot of ignorant people out there as well as rude dogs that are not well socialized, my dog knows that i'm there to take the best decision  helping him with what is bothering him so he does not have to use his own methods if that dog/kid/thing/person is not getting the message

There is a distinct difference between letting dogs work it out in the context of your own household pack, versus encounters with unknown dogs.  I give a lot more latitude to dogs that I know, and less to dogs that I don't know.  I have found that many dogs can learn, contextually, that they are not to mount, bully, obsess on other dogs, or escalate in the training center. I don't put my dogs, or my clients dogs,. in a situation where they have to worry about working it out in a public setting.  So, I do agree that, as a handler, you should not have to tolerate aggressive displays from or against your dog in that context.

Also,  working it out while there is a kid around is not the same as working it out WITH a kid.  As we know, any interruption of aggression can lead to a redirected bite, and dogs often bite their own owners or others in that situation.  So, when dogs fight, get the kids out of there first, and intervene with an OBJECT and not your hands.  Dog to dog aggression is separate from dog to human aggression in most other cases, so a dog that continually challenges other dogs is not necessarily going to challenges humans, young or old, although it is certainly possible and with some dogs, probable.  The two forms of aggression are not mutually exclusive either.

You are correct about repeat fights in one sense.  But, it is often our interference that causes dogs to continue to fight, since they never resolve the issue.  So, that, my friend, is a double edged sword.  So, it is still important to know dogs very well before assuming that you should or should not intervene, and you can't really make a blanket statement about it.  Everything depends on the context, the dogs' ages, the gender and breed of the dogs involved, and their prior history (if any), etc.

a common problem with owners who are too quick to intervene in doggy disputes is the conflict escalates over time until it moves from a shouting match to outright violence. You also see dogs who become bullies because they know their owner is going to come roaring in and rescue them from their well-deserved scolding by the other dog. very few doggy disputes are actually intended to cause damage- lots of noise and flashing teeth and in seconds one dog apologizes and it's over. No human can simulate that behavior.